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Chinese Bullet Train Company Wants U.S. Patents (For a Train Based on Japanese Technology)

A state-owned train company in China wants to obtain U.S. patents for the technology used in its CRH380A bullet train. Some in Japan are annoyed to hear this, since the train is pretty much a copy of Japan’s Hayate bullet train. The Chinese, however, insist that they’ve made changes to the Japanese design:

“The results of their initial assessment were positive, which means China can apply for patents in the United States,” he said, admitting that patent applications were being prepared. “The train’s technologies are rooted in Japanese technologies, but the CRH380A train is no longer the train imported from Japan years ago.”
Ma provided a detailed analysis of the parts imported, design concepts and how technology and design were related, and argued that adjustments on (1) the truck, (2) the train head design and (3) the train hull have enabled the train to run at a speed of 380 kph.

The Yomiuri speculates that obtaining patents in America, Brazil, Russia and Europe could be a step towards selling this “Chinese” technology to foreign high speed rail projects:

China has developed high-speed railway cars through technology licenses from companies in Japan, Germany, France and Canada. Under the licensing agreements, China’s use of the expertise was to be limited to domestic application, an informed source said.

The Chinese government has said its high-speed rail technology was developed completely on its own, with an official at the Railways Ministry saying, “We adopted it [the technology from overseas], digested it, absorbed it and innovated based on it.”

Of the places where Beijing has filed for the patents, the United States, Brazil and Russia have high-speed railway development projects. With the patent filings, China is apparently trying to gain an advantage in the competition to win sizable contracts.

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52 comments - What do you think? Posted by James - June 29, 2011 at 7:35 pm

Categories: Technology Tags:

Tony D

the difference is that they’ve managed to make the entire thing out of recycled rubbish, ala

http://www.weirdasianews.com/2010/02/05/shanghai-wonderbridge-trash-collapses/

Anonymous

Dude, you’re all whacked here. Checked your link and your a Crapaholic consuming weirdo who takes obscure news (like from Enquirer Tabloids) and actually believes it. I’ll bet you think Elvis is still alive and the only government that isn’t corrupt is America’s too!

You all need to come out of your steel and concrete bomb shelters and visit countries like Japan, So. Korea, Taiwan and China to find out that although they have some problems, they are actually doing something about it. Rather than shipping all their problems (like we do) overseas, for them to worry about it!

Surprise Surprise

Wow.
Look at the thieves try to legitimize themselves.
Let this serve as a lesson to countries and industries who would partner with Chinese firms.
They will absorb as much technology as you can give them, and then proceed to inform you that you’re “No longer needed” and that they will be moving into your market with “their” advanced technology.
Pathetic. Disgusting. But what should we really expect.

Anonymous

Sounds much like the rhetoric that was being bounced around decades ago, only the countries have changed.
Anonymous

Sounds much like the rhetoric that was being bounced around decades ago, only the countries have changed.

http://www.facebook.com/rallegretti Rob Allegretti

How, exactly, have they changed? They still charge ahead full-speed with stealing all of the intellectual property of further developed industries, while pretending “Hey, what did I do? I’m just catching up…”

They are thieves. Constantly. This is highly unlikely to change until their political situation does.
http://www.facebook.com/rallegretti Rob Allegretti

How, exactly, have they changed? They still charge ahead full-speed with stealing all of the intellectual property of further developed industries, while pretending “Hey, what did I do? I’m just catching up…”

They are thieves. Constantly. This is highly unlikely to change until their political situation does.

Anonymous

I said “only the countries have changed” meaning old story new players – as in – others have been accused of the same over the years. I didn’t mention China.
Aa

Yeah, read before you comment, at least in reply to a comment.
Aa

Yeah, read before you comment, at least in reply to a comment.

BadWolf

The Chinese are intellectual propety thieves.
Anonymous

I’m not a patent lawyer or anything, but won’t the request be denied if there is already a patent in place by the Japanese company who made it? Or do patents expire or something? Maybe I’m missing it but it seems like nothing to worry about unless the Chinese patent is actually new and different.

http://domofactor.com Derrick

Patents expire after 20 years or so, and patent application are specific to each individual country and doesn’t apply globally. You need to apply to for patents in other parts of the world to keep them from stealing your idea. Also if you make slight modifications and the changes that are truly innovative in a way to improve the product, it is no longer the same piece and you can apply for a patent for your modifications. So that is why most patents are very broad and vague to prevent any slight changes to existing designs to get around patents.

Anonymous

So it sounds like there is a possibility that the Chinese may be making a legitimate patent claim that might commonly be done by anyone. Wouldn’t it be best to just wait until the patent is approved or not to jump on the hate train. Unless someone has first hand knowledge of the patents that are submitted versus the exiting patents then these reports start sound like nothing more than anti-Chinese bigotry.
Anonymous

So it sounds like there is a possibility that the Chinese may be making a legitimate patent claim that might commonly be done by anyone. Wouldn’t it be best to just wait until the patent is approved or not to jump on the hate train. Unless someone has first hand knowledge of the patents that are submitted versus the exiting patents then these reports start sound like nothing more than anti-Chinese bigotry.

RMilner

When a patent expires the invention goes into the public domain and can be copied and used by anyone. You can’t re-patent a time expired design.

Piglet

The whole thing is blown out of proportion. During the patent application process, patent specialists will assess the validity of the claim from the Chinese firm. If indeed the design is a copy of another patented design, the application will be denied. If there are significant differences between both designs, the application might be granted. I hope the Japanese company patented the design not only in Japan but also in US and EU, so that its original design will be protected. There is nothing specific to China in this behavior. In this kind of industry, this is more or less the rule (modify competitors technology in order to patent it).
Piglet

The whole thing is blown out of proportion. During the patent application process, patent specialists will assess the validity of the claim from the Chinese firm. If indeed the design is a copy of another patented design, the application will be denied. If there are significant differences between both designs, the application might be granted. I hope the Japanese company patented the design not only in Japan but also in US and EU, so that its original design will be protected. There is nothing specific to China in this behavior. In this kind of industry, this is more or less the rule (modify competitors technology in order to patent it).

butakun

The matter is even simpler in the US as all you need to show is prior art. For example the distinct (ugly?) nose contouring of some Shinkansen types are due to Japan’s unique railway network where there are many more tight tunnels than other high-speed rail services in Europe. Detailed aerodynamic/acoustic studies and how the contouring was optimized were published internationally in the 90′s, thus the idea would be considered prior art even if no patent was granted. (I’m not saying the Chinese are trying to patent this in particular.)

RMilner

There are rules governing the issue of patents.

I agree with those who have said let’s wait and let the system deal with the case before we unleash Sino-hate.

joe

Hypocrisy?

The N700 is a copy of the German made 700 series shinkansen. Japan bought six trains from the german designer then copied them. If you take the shinkansen a lot, you may notice that the led boards tell you the type of train is coming. If it’s a german made 700 no train type appears on the board.

The wikipedia article on the 700 series is not locked, nor does it mention the german trains.
joe

Hypocrisy?

The N700 is a copy of the German made 700 series shinkansen. Japan bought six trains from the german designer then copied them. If you take the shinkansen a lot, you may notice that the led boards tell you the type of train is coming. If it’s a german made 700 no train type appears on the board.

The wikipedia article on the 700 series is not locked, nor does it mention the german trains.

butakun

You are confused with the 500-series Shinkansen whose distinct exterior design is by a German design firm. The LED boards on the Shinkansen platforms indicate nothing about the actual train set, it just says Kodama/Hikari/Nozomi/etc.

But go ahead and correct the Wikipedia article if it’s incorrect.

joe

the boards do in-fact show N700, 300, etc.

butakun

No they don’t.

LOD

The exterior of 500 Series was designed by Alexander Neumeister, a German design firm. The train itself, apart from the exterior design, was co-developed by the group of firms, all of them Japanese. The succeeding Shinkansen models, including 700 and N700, were all developed by Japanese firms, including their exterior designs – You can see the designs of the “corn-head” 500 and “duck-face” 700/N700 are completely different.

And, just in case you didn’t know, Japanese also developed all the Shinkansen models [i]preceding[/i] 500, too. I wouldn’t think it was very easy for Japanese to “copy” when they invented the high-speed rail decades before Germans.

“you may notice that the led boards tell you the type of train is coming. If it’s a german made 700 no train type appears on the board.”

Are you saying, like, Japanese want to hide the fact they shamelessly copied 500, excuse me, 700, from Germans, so they don’t show train type on LED board when it’s 500, I mean, 700? What kind of Japan are you living in? Somewhere in China?
As butakun says, the LED board at Shinkansen station doesn’t show any train types, be it 500, 700 or N700. And that’s from before the Japanese copied 500 …sorry, 700.
Hamachiman

Besides LOD’s excellent posting, how is it ‘hypocrisy’ when the article linked above doesn’t mention anything about any Japanese person or entity crying foul about this possible future filing of a patent? The article only mentions that it MAY lead to an international dispute in the future. At this point, even taking your argument at face value, how can there be ‘hypocrisy’ when no one from Japan’s been complaining about this?

Once again, attribute things to the Japanese character and psyche when no such things have occurred?
Hamachiman

Besides LOD’s excellent posting, how is it ‘hypocrisy’ when the article linked above doesn’t mention anything about any Japanese person or entity crying foul about this possible future filing of a patent? The article only mentions that it MAY lead to an international dispute in the future. At this point, even taking your argument at face value, how can there be ‘hypocrisy’ when no one from Japan’s been complaining about this?

Once again, attribute things to the Japanese character and psyche when no such things have occurred?

http://www.facebook.com/rallegretti Rob Allegretti

And the cycle of Chinese plagiarism of everyone else’s intellectual property continues unabated and without criticism from the world’s governments…
http://www.facebook.com/rallegretti Rob Allegretti

And the cycle of Chinese plagiarism of everyone else’s intellectual property continues unabated and without criticism from the world’s governments…
RMilner

I read somewhere that the Chinese train has failed to make its target speed so perhaps it won’t be a good design to use anyway.

Anonymous

Besides the fact that the Chinese railway systems have big problems behind the shiny facade of high-speed rail.

http://www.billowykimono.com Senor Science

And this is one of the reasons I think will be the downfall of China.

How can you expect to become a superpower when you’re industrial base is based off of ripping off and pirating western/Japanese sources? They put the Soviets to shame in the industrial espionage department.

Piglet

This is not unique as this is how Japan developed from the 50′s to the 70′s (western managers at that time were warned not to give any design to the Japanese as they would copy it). China is developing very fast (while Japan is regressing), so this kind of stories will progressively disappear as you have more and more indigenous R&D in China.

http://www.billowykimono.com Senor Science

I’ve never heard of Japanese firms breaking patent laws in the past. Hell, it didn’t even come up once in some of the history of Japanese business classes that I took while still a student.

I’m calling BS on this one.

Anonymous

Who mentioned breaking the law?
Piglet

I need to find some academic sources for this, but this will be OK for now as I am at work:
http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=524&catid=16&subcatid=110Rise of the Japanese Economy
1963 ToyotaWith Washington taking care of security, Japan was able to focus its energy on becoming an economic powerhouse. By 1951 the Japanese gross national product had revived to pre-war levels, and Japanese businessmen had begun roaming through American factories with little supervision, picking up technical knowledge.
Japan’s economic ascension had three distinct stages. The first stage was guided by the “priority production system” of the 1950s that stressed increasing coal and steel output and developing heavy industries like shipbuilding and timber making. In the second stage in the 1960s and 70s Japan focused on producing consumer products and automobiles for export markets. The third stage was the development of knowledge-based products like computers and electronics. [Source: Ian Buruma, Newsweek]
The Japanese went through a stage similar to the one that China is going through now in terms of copying and piracy. In the early stages of their development Japanese companies copied many American and European products. These companies and the Japanese government became more concerned with intellectual property concerns when Japanese companies needed laws to protect their patents and copyrights.
Japan’s talent for monozukuri (“thing making”) has been a key to its success. Many businesses got their start in one room neighborhood factories, relying on cheap labor, that made textiles, toys, tools and cheap electronic items. The first Sony portable transistor radio appeared in 1955 and the first Barbie dolls were produced in Japan in 1959.
Early Japanese products were ridiculed as cheap imitations and many companies made awful mistakes. Datsun, for example, named its first American cars the “Bluebird,” as in the “bluebird of happiness.” The car failed miserably in a market dominated by Thunderbirds, Mustangs and Barracudas.

http://www.billowykimono.com Senor Science

This doesn’t give any concrete examples dude.

“Early Japanese products were ridiculed as cheap imitations and many
companies made awful mistakes. Datsun, for example, named its first
American cars the “Bluebird,” as in the “bluebird of happiness.” The car
failed miserably in a market dominated by Thunderbirds, Mustangs and
Barracudas.”

Lollerskates.

I guess all the people who still own Datsun 510′s, aka Datsun Bluebirds that are revered in my native California must be a figment of my imagination.

nigelboy

“I need to find some academic sources for this, but this will be OK for now as I am at work:”

Another words, your assertion was not based on academic sources from the beginning and now you’re hoping that you could find something in the future or hope that people will not challenge your assertion.

And about the author of the link you posted…

”I am not professor or an expert on the subjects I write about but I have done a fair amount of reading about them. I try to use good sources (see below) and have been doing what I am doing—collecting and organizing information and facts— for several years now and have developed some skill at it. The text is written more in travel guide and magazine or newspaper styles than in an academic style. I don’t have footnotes and bibliographies but I do name sources when I think those sources offer unique insights and quote a variety of people. When a source is not listed the information can be taken to be a generally accepted fact (often seen in at least two different places) or has been arrived at through observation (direct or second hand through other sources) or by common sense. “

Chihi

日本、アメリカ、ドイツ、イギリス、フランスなど全てcopycatの歴史があるわけで、当事者が法的に争うのは別にして、一般市民がとかくnationalisticに論ずるのは天に唾するようで恥ずかしい。多くの国が「真似する側」にある中、ごく少数の国が「真似される側」に到達できた。2000年以降、科学系ノーベル賞受賞者数もアメリカに次ぐ数を輩出しているし、漫画やアニメ・TVゲームの影響は世界的となっている。どうやら日本もこの栄えある「真似される側」に加わることができたようで、そういう意味ではなかなか栄誉なことではないか。

http://www.sakatland.com/blog Sakat

“ripping off and pirating another country’s sources” that’s not another world for colonialism?

http://www.billowykimono.com Senor Science

Funny, you could say the same about the Chinese in regards to World War 2.

HEYYOOOOO
Angelo_d

Good artists borrow, great artists steal.
Angelo_d

Good artists borrow, great artists steal.
http://www.sakatland.com/blog Sakat

Taking something from another country and adapting it? That’s not the history Japan?
Drew

japan’s entire culture has copied and incorporated elements from tang dynasty china and the west. I didn’t hear anybody complaining about copyrights during that time…

http://www.japanprobe.com James

“…copied and incorporated elements from tang dynasty china …I didn’t hear anybody complaining about copyrights during that time…”

Yes, because there was no such thing as copyrights or patents at that time.

Every time I post about a topic like this, the inevitable “Japan copied stuff 40 years ago” and “Japanese copied their language and culture from China 1000 years ago” comments appear.

We aren’t living in the world of 40 to 50 years ago, and we certainly aren’t living in the era of the tang dynasty. We live in a globalized world where countries (even developing countries) are expected to respect patents and copyrights. This is the 21st century, and the actions of countries will be judged by the rules and norms we have now.
http://www.japanprobe.com James

“…copied and incorporated elements from tang dynasty china …I didn’t hear anybody complaining about copyrights during that time…”

Yes, because there was no such thing as copyrights or patents at that time.

Every time I post about a topic like this, the inevitable “Japan copied stuff 40 years ago” and “Japanese copied their language and culture from China 1000 years ago” comments appear.

We aren’t living in the world of 40 to 50 years ago, and we certainly aren’t living in the era of the tang dynasty. We live in a globalized world where countries (even developing countries) are expected to respect patents and copyrights. This is the 21st century, and the actions of countries will be judged by the rules and norms we have now.
Hiroshima

Well, we did copy culture of China and the West (not entirely though), but we never mention it’s our ORIGINAL.
We are not saying ”don’t copy anything from Japan” but merely saying it is not fair if China wants a patent on something developed in Japan.
Hiroshima

Well, we did copy culture of China and the West (not entirely though), but we never mention it’s our ORIGINAL.
We are not saying ”don’t copy anything from Japan” but merely saying it is not fair if China wants a patent on something developed in Japan.

http://www.sakatland.com/blog Sakat

I suppose that “we” doesn’t include the basic salarymen met in bars who like to explain how everything is so exclusive in Japan

http://nihonburp.com Michael Warren

Yep nothing new here China rips off anything and everything it can get its hands on

Chinese Bullet Train Company Wants U.S. Patents (For a Train Based on Japanese Technology)

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