European Right-wingers Visit Yasukuni

There are a lot of hardcore Japanese ultra-nationalists reading this site considering how I get massively voted down just for stating that Japan’s cause was unjust. Perhaps one of them would like to show himself and explain how Japan’s military adventures were, in fact, completely righteous.

”There are a lot of hardcore Japanese ultra-nationalists reading this site considering how I get massively voted down just for stating that Japan’s cause was unjust. ”

The pacifists who claim all the wars are unjust would also vote you down.

Thank you JeanRob for your comment below.

And that was the point I was trying to make.

tokyojesusfist,

…I get massively voted down just for stating that Japan’s cause was unjust.

Nowhere did I claim that Japan’s cause for war was good or just. You’re looking too hard for ultranationalists where there aren’t any.
I took issue with what you said after that.

There’s also nothing heroic about dying for an unjust cause.

Even if those causes that those soldiers died for turned out to be misguided, mistaken or even malicious in hindsight, (which I should point out I am not particularly in disagreement with), that has little bearing on the spirit of individuals at the time who believed what they were doing was for the good for their country and family back home and that they laid down their lives for it. I think it would be appropriate to recognize the great sacrifices those soldiers made back then doing their jobs.

Going back to my analogy with current events, remember how Bush said there were WMD’s in Iraq threatening the United States because Saddam Hussein is a terrorist is Al Qaeda is Osama bin Laden, so the US armed forces blazed in, bombed the crap out of them and toppled the government along with the statue, and then it turns out there weren’t any WMDs after all, but since they already dismantled any existing local law enforcement/military organizations (oops) out of fears they had other loyalties, American soldiers had to act as the police in the quagmire and were being injured and killed by insurgents long after the war was technically over?
Using your reasoning, if consensus is reached that the Iraq War was unjustified after all, then that would mean all the sacrifices the American soldiers made in Iraq in doing their job suddenly becomes worthless. If you actually believe that then you’re entitled to your beliefs, but I’d doubt that would get very far in popular discourse.

Rob A,

Are you really trying to say that Japan was not the aggressor for the entirety of their involvement in World War II?

No.

But if one were a solider in the Imperial Japanese Army or Navy, and one day got word that Japan bungled the attack on Pearl Harbor (though unlikely in reality due to all the censoring of news and propaganda) and now America is raging mad and is so ready to open a can of major whoopass in a well-deserved retaliation, what is one supposed to do?
It may be the job of politicians and diplomats to work out deals and treaties, but as soldiers, their duty is to fight off the enemy, whatever the enemy’s reasons may be. If they died doing so, they still died “defending the country” and doing their jobs. The issue in this comment thread is whether to recognize that sacrifice or not depending on the bigger picture to which the casualty is a part of.

Sure, I think you should pay your respect to 911 perpetrators. Say whatever you want about these folks but they had strong beliefs in their cause. While you’re at it, remember to buy the Nazis some golden daffodils. A lot of them folks truly believed in what they were doing was right.

Your point was crystal – regardless of the circumstances, those who answered the call of duty and died for their believes should be honored. I have made you realize the folly in your statement, which is probably why you’re at a loss for words. Don’t be embarrassed, we all make mistakes.

You’re gathering the 911 victims with its few perpetrators. That is a problematic, since most of the 911 victims did not die fighting for any cause, they played the singular role of victim, with no reciprocating actions on their part.

Our confused friend JeanRob was specifically referring to those who died believing in a just cause. The distinction is important, as Yasukuni doesn’t just honor any victim of war, only those who died in servitude to Imperial Japan, and therein lies the controversy. The argument doesn’t apply to, say, the Hiroshima war memorial museum, nor does it apply to a 9/11 memorial, unless if it’s a memorial for its perpetrators.

The situation is more akin to German officials visiting a SS cemetery, which according what you’ve said, as long as they’re just paying tribute to the good memories of the lost ones and not the atrocities they committed, should be entirely acceptable. Well, is it?

Ponta, I think you see a bit too much “la vie en rose”. There will always be mad people praising the atrocities commited. But colorful, you are the opposite. You just don’t want to admit that your point of view is not the universal truth.

As for all the civilian victims (wether the 9/11 ones, or those from Hiroshima), they all fought and died for a cause. Don’t you think working at the WTC was in some way fighting for the ultra liberal western way of life, or working t the plants in Hiroshima was supporting the war effort?
I’m not saying that they diserved it, but they did their part in a greater scheme, don’t you think?

I might be wrong, but I think you associate “us” with the war criminals. And I never said “whatever the circumstances”, that’s not that simple. By the way, when I said I would stop discussing that, this wasn’t because I lack points, but because I don’t speak well enough to explain my ideas clearly and it would turn in an ugly and useless argument.

Anyway, on a personal note, I think the Japanese and its foreign countries should follow the example of France and Germany. Not all war criminals (on both sides) have been convicted, and some are still honoured, BUT, we managed to pardon each other. Anger just leads to more anger, and eventhough we still have some clashes, Europe wouldn’t be where it is without a real understanding between those two countries.

colorful

”in your somewhat desperate attempt to counter my point that the Yasukuni Shrine is not dedicated to civilians, you included a list of animals, oblivious of the fact that they, like their masters, died serving Japan in times of war, thus going back to supporting my very point.”

I am not sure why you left the chinreisya I listed.

“This shrine was built in 1965 to console the souls of everyone who died in wars fought anywhere in the World.”

“let me rephrase the question: how about German officials officially visiting a non-religious monument, erected in memories of German soldiers (and cutesy little animals woot) who died serving Nazi Germany in WWII? ”

Is there such a monument?

Anyway,
According to wiki,

In Germany Volkstrauertag (German: national day of mourning) is a public holiday . It commemorates those who died in war and the victims of violent oppression.

I for one see nothing wrong with that, though SS also died in war.

The Jewish folks don’t seem to have any problem whatsoever with that.

And German War Graves Commission (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge), acting on behalf of the Federal Government, register, maintain and care for the graves of German war dead . After World War II, it resumed its work in 1946 and soon established more than 400 war cemeteries in Germany. An official observation of Volkstrauertag takes place in the German Bundestag. The German Bundespräsident traditionally gives a speech with the Chancellor, the cabinet and the diplomatic corps present. The national anthem and the song “Ich hatt’ einen Kameraden” are then played.

The Jewish folks don’t seem to have any problem whatsoever with that.

Probably your assumption and comparison are somehow misleading. However I also understand there are always controversies over the war memorial.

Some folks have some problems with the following cases.

”
BERLIN (JTA) — A controversy has erupted in a German town over a new memorial that critics say honors SS soldiers and ignores Jewish Holocaust victims.

The interfaith German-Israel Society says the memorial to be unveiled Nov. 15 in Grossburgwedel, near Hannover, recognizes members of the notorious Blackshirts. But the mayor of Burgwedel, which has jurisdiction over Grossburgwedel, rejects the charge.・・・・・・

In 1985, President Ronald Reagan caused a stir by joining then-Chancellor Helmut Kohl for ceremonies at Bitburg Cemetery, where the graves of SS soldiers lie alongside those of regular soldiers. And in 1993, Berlin rededicated the Neue Wache, a central memorial honoring soldiers and victims that has remained controversial.・・・・”
（JTA　By Toby Axelrod · October 30, 2009）

etc..

colorful

“I’m not sure why you gave a long list of animals that served in war and named a separate shrine to counter the argument of the main Yasukuni shrine enshrining those who died serving Japan in war time?”

To show Yasukuni honors and consoles the war dead including animals and people who died in war.

“You do know which shrine is at the center of all this controversy, right?”

Yasukuni shrine, no?

“you’re confusing all war dead with military war dead, specifically, WWII military war dead”

It is not appropriate to say I , or people are confused. As I said, generally people don’t have any specific person in mind when praying for the war dead.

Let’s take Koizumi for instance,

He said,

”In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war.”
（　Statement by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi　August 15, 2005）

”he does not visit for the sake of the Class-A war criminals, and that Japan accepted the results of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. He has acknowledged that Japan, “through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations.”
（Basic Position of the Government of Japan
Regarding Prime Minister Koizumi’s Visits to Yasukuni Shrine　October, 2005）

　”Today I paid a visit to Yasukuni Shrine.　　The purpose of my visit was to mourn sincerely all those who lost their lives for their country, leaving behind their families in spite of themselves, during the course of our country’s history since the Meiji Restoration.”

（Observation by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on the Visit to Yasukuni Shrine　April 21, 2002）

Of course one can always argue that someone is praying for A criminals or SS and praising their diabolic acts during their lifetime in praying for the war dead whatever he says concerning his prayer because the war-dead include A criminals and/or SS , and therefore should not mourn for the war dead . In this sense, any event of mourning for the war dead should be banned. But it is an extreme position, I guess.

“obviously you are happy because that losers are honoring the japanese “heroes”, right?”

Where did you get this idea?

I’m impartial to this and don’t really care either way.

And asides from the small number of war criminals enshrined there I would say the rest of the dead would be heroes for defending their nation.

Some of us have evolved to look beyond a black/white sense of morality and view of the world.