Disturbing DVD shop in Tokyo

Not many Japanese are familiar with this kind of stuff.

Apparently not. Though lax child porn regulations in Japan have been helpfully pointed out previously (by wicked imperialist foreigners).

If you look closely at the photo, it seems the shop sells something like toys other than DVD.

Yes I noticed the sex toys on the shelf next to them.

Anyway didn’t you complain when you think a public should complain?

Hey I am just one “orientalist”…I cant fix ALL of Japans issues. Maybe Japan should address its own issues, as is the constant mantra from those who dont want foreign influence.

If you like, I’ll call the hotline . Tell me which shop.

James? Any info for ponta on that? Probably better for a Japanese national to handle this culturally sensitive issue rather than a foreign barbarian who does not understand unique culture of Japan.

leitmotiv
”
Not many Japanese are familiar with this kind of stuff.

Apparently not.”

And not many people don’t enter that kind of shop either. Right?
Does that answer your questions, “are Japanese generally aware that is can be found openly displayed in a shop? And if so, why hasn’t there been a public outrage”?

I wonder why you couldn’t figure it our by yourself and I also wonder why you know that kind of stuff is displayed in that kind of shop.

Incidentally your assumption that “the neighborhood” somehow should “organize some local yakuza types” in this type of situation is wrong.

I wonder why you’ve made such an assumption.

leitmotiv said;

“James? Any info for ponta on that? Probably better for a Japanese national to handle this culturally sensitive issue rather than a foreign barbarian who does not understand unique culture of Japan.”

1) What does James have to do with it here ? It is ponta who is asking.
2) Ponta is a Japanese national
Do you think that 3)a foreigner is a barbarian ?
—It is wrong.

Do you hold the theory that 4) Japanese culture is unique ?
—-in what respect?
Anyway whatever that means, it is mostly likely to be wrong.

Supposing you are being sarcastic, the sarcasm is off the mark,because here nobody’s assuming 3) and 4) hold.

leitmotiv

”so knee-jerk and misguided that his comments seem to question whether DVDs of barely-clothed kids sold in a sex shop should technically count as child porn”

It just goes to show your reading ability failed in English and in Japanese.
May I offer you a good teacher of English as well as Japanese?

I also suggest the readers to review our comments.

Your inference that” he has not been back to reply, so maybe he realizes the indefensibility of his comment” is wrong.
People are not always behind the computer to respond to you. And also keep in mind,leitmotiv, the comment does not necessarily come up at the time you post.

@ ponta

At least you’re not questioning the validity of outrage about the above child porn article on technical grounds now….I’ll call that progress and understand that you, like me, also find it disgusting and unacceptable (as many other Japanese do). This is unfortunately more than I can say for some of the other commenters on this thread today (e.g., see all Stereo comments herein) who tacitly support the sale of such DVDs, apparently for mere reason that some gaijin condemn it.

Not many Japanese are familiar with this kind of stuff.

What do you mean by “familiar”, and how do you know? Are you spokesman for Japanese people again today?

And not many people don’t enter that kind of shop either. Right?
Does that answer your questions, “are Japanese generally aware that is can be found openly displayed in a shop? And if so, why hasn’t there been a public outrage”?

No it does not answer that question. The number of people who physically enter a shop such as above is wholly irrelevant to that question.

Incidentally your assumption that “the neighborhood” somehow should “organize some local yakuza types” in this type of situation is wrong.
I wonder why you’ve made such an assumption.

Its not an assumption. I am “musing”. Look that word up. Musing based on known historical problem-solving activities of the yakuza in Japan society. Look that up too. Check 1995 Kobe earthquake response specifically.

1) What does James have to do with it here ?

Why is it so outrageous to ask if the original poster has more specific info?

Supposing you are being sarcastic

You suppose correctly. I will call that progress too. I figure I am helping you with communication survival skills in case you ever live/work/study outside Japan and finally have a chance to understand what objectivity means. And of course then you can go back through the majority of you archived comments here and wonder wtf you were thinking.

(…You’re welcome, btw).

“What do you mean by “familiar””

Look up the word.

“how do you know?”

I have no reason to believe otherwise.
How many people you know enjoy, talking of the people enjoying the child pornography?

“No it does not answer that question.・・・・・”
If people don’t visit this kind of shop, people have not watched this kind of DVD, they don’t know what it is like.And if they don’t know what it is like,they can’t be outraged.
Hence it is relevant.

“I am “musing”.”

You are musing over the wrong assumption.

“Why is it so outrageous to ask if the original poster ”

I was talking about the shops you mentioned.
You said.

” Are e Japanese generally aware that is can be found openly displayed in a shop”

Does James know the shops you were talking about?

BTW it is not outrageous. It is just off the mark.

Is a pedophile who enjoys legal child videos any worse than a man who watches legal but kinkiest and most explicit pornography of girls over 18?

Stereo:

“Is a pedophile who enjoys legal child videos any worse than a man who watches legal but kinkiest and most explicit pornography of girls over 18?”

In my opinion 100% yes it is worse. A pedophile is someone who desires to have sexual relations with children. It’s not a guarantee that every one of them will act on these desires but why would it ever be ok to fuel their sickness? Children in these videos might not be fully capable of understanding what is going on at the moment but do you not think this will have some negative impact on a person as they mature. Can you imagine growing up knowing that your parents thought it was ok for you to be in a video in which pedophiles would fantasize about you? There is really nothing positive that can be gained from these videos existing other than some shady people making money.

Once someone becomes an adult and is able to make their own choices that involve other adults I really don’t care what they do. As long as you don’t harm others I don’t see anything wrong with pornography between adults.

Children are not equipped to make these kind of decisions and they should be protected. Adults have a responsibility to protect the welfare of children. Allowing a child to be objectified in such a disturbing way is just unforgivable.

In short pedophilia is not OK ever, at least in my book.

Thinking about sex with a 4 year old in itself is not a crime, unless you have thought police.

What is important is to draw a line between what is legal and what is illegal. Not what is moral and immoral.

pixel_bomber

Of course the negative impact on children is a concern and that is why child pornography is PROHIBITED in Japan.

You are just stretching the envelope and arguing what is not child pornography should be banned also.

I think that’s the argument that abnormals and deviants are caused and encouraged by external stimuli are rather fallacious. Along the same lines of argument that violent video games cause violent kids.

Unless we resort to brainwashing as “treatment”, there will be always be some percentage of the populations with these latent fetishes. They may realize it’s wrong and unacceptable themselves and usually lock them away in the dark corners of their minds, but you can’t just make it go away like flipping a switch.
Instead, I think the theory that, without an outlet they may “snap” one day and step over the fine line and resort to crimes, has some validity. In that sense, This shady market may be sort of a necessary lesser evil to prevent a greater evil.

Of course I think parents who exploit their children for making these videos are reprehensible and it would be all great if we could just wish them away, but as long as they do not cross that line that the law has laid out, there’s nothing we can do about it.
And this is where the whole “imaginary children” thing comes in to the argument as an alternative, but that’s a while different topic.

helical:

I’m sure people can make convincing arguments in both directions. Maybe watching videos of children while they pleasure themselves keeps pedophiles from destroying the lives of others. Or maybe it makes them feel that there is some level of social acceptance to it that they may not have gotten if the videos/manga were not so easily available.

One problem though that even you mentioned is that parents who allow their children to participate in these videos are just reprehensible. So at least we can agree that no one should be making these videos. Of course that would make it impossible for anyone to watch them so maybe that negates the first statement.

I know it’s impossible to make this sickness just vanish by flipping a switch. I just have trouble believing that this is a healthy way to deal with it. I don’t know what the answer is but perhaps some psychiatric help would be better than something that feeds their unhealthy desires.

I’m sorry if my responses seem very opinionated but this a topic I feel very strongly about. I have to admit I am a little shocked at how defensive some posters here are over this issue. Granted this is the internet and I’ll take it with a grain of salt. I don’t view this as an exclusive problem to Japan so I hope some of the Japanese posters are not acting defensively thinking this is an anti-Japan thing.

pixel_bomber,

I’ll dive into this loooong debate without following nearly anything posted here!

I’m sorry if my responses seem very opinionated but this a topic I feel very strongly about. I have to admit I am a little shocked at how defensive some posters here are over this issue. Granted this is the internet and I’ll take it with a grain of salt. I don’t view this as an exclusive problem to Japan so I hope some of the Japanese posters are not acting defensively thinking this is an anti-Japan thing.

I did not want to behave defensively here but… To speak something from a “defensive” standpoint, I want to give a question: How do this kind of information and debate help and contribute to the Japanese society? Maybe, child pornography and prostitution information supplied on the English blogosphere just benefit pimps, child sex tour conductors, and illegal video retailers? I believe you never imagined a harem of naughty Japanese schoolgirls camouflaged with after-school English teaching activity.

Ajapa:

I’m not sure I understand your post entirely.

“How do this kind of information and debate help and contribute to the Japanese society?”

To be honest I was kind of surprised the topic was even debatable, but here we are. I am simply expressing my opinion. I think that’s what I am supposed to type in this box right? My intention is not related to helping Japanese society per se, but to express my opinion that exploiting children in this way is wrong. My posts were not targeted at Japan, I understand that the people defending this type of material might be a minority. I just wanted to understand why. Like I said this is an important topic to me so maybe I seemed a bit too opinionated or self righteous.

As for the rest of your post “Maybe, child pornography and prostitution information supplied on the English blogosphere just benefit pimps, child sex tour conductors…”
Honestly I don’t follow any blogs about these types of activities. I visit Japan Probe since I live in Japan and have an interest in what is going on. It’s just random that there happened to be a post about disturbing DVDs on one of the few web sites I frequent.

And no I am not a teacher so I have no contact with schoolgirls. Not that I am against schoolgirls, I mean they still call them schoolgirls when they are in college right? You can be 21 and still be in school. But no, I don’t fantasize about 12 year olds if that is what you were asking.

pixel_bomber
Looking at the video linked below, I wonder what the uploader’s intention/point of uploading it ?

Suppose a foreigner goes to red-light district and visit a sex shop in the U.S. and upload the video called “Shame in the U.S.”

What do you think of his point of uploading?
Do you think s/he bothers to be doing the same thing in the home country?
What assumption do you think s/he holds about the U.S.?
Is s/he just introducing one aspect of the U.S and outraged by it?

We don’t know. But I just wonder.

jcu
　
Ask yourself what we are talking about. We are talking about child p@rnography not gravure idol videos in general.

“it is too weird to know you can use animal for sexual object.”

Google animal s○x. You’ll find disturbing sites operating in English language sphere.

Incidentally , if somebody asks the following questions, looking at the sites, I think s/he holds bunch of wrong assumptions about people and the country in which the site is operating.

“Is that gravure idol videos too jcu is talking about ?”
“Do people in that part of the world　 know how to treat animals?”
“Is animal abuse okay out there?”
“Are general public in English speaking sphere familiar with that?
Isn’t it surprising that that English speaking people do not organize mafia type to close the site?”

But somehow when it comes to Japan, it seems that the questions make sense for some people.

As a side, your knowledge/understanding that there are some who use stocking for masturbation and old men who pay money or give presents to hang around with these teen girls does not mean you are using it for that purpose nor you have an inclination for that, does it?

“people buying these gravure idol video is better then those old men who pay money or give presents to hang around with these teen girls…”

Do you mean an old man like a sugar daddy and oyaji who engage in Enkou?

WATCH: Are ‘Sugar Daddy’ Sites Prostitution?(ABC)
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8387456

By these gravure idol video, if you mean child pornography, I can’t easily say which is worse.

Although, I think, leading motive of the person who have uploaded the video on YouTube must be Japanophobia but not anti-Pedophilia if the link and video provided by other on the last night is indeed valid.

Why do you think that? And why would it matter one bit to this topic even if you could somehow demonstrate that its true?

Haha, leitmotiv’s spinal reflex! This topic? What’s the topic? Think a million times!

No, it’s you who first showed serious inability and immaturity. Think a million times what you said and what I said.

Oooooooh booooooy,

I think once is enough.

You now understand? Congrats leitmotiv aka leading motive. Quoting out of context, thoughtless response, and so on. And why would it matter one bit to this topic? James said “I think it is because your reflexive response was ludicrous.” Yeah… Neither do I. You are a legend.

Ooooooooh booooooy,

Regrettable.

You went into your ultimate strategy of denial of other’s personality without using explicit insulting words. Rather than quickly going into investigation of grammatical mistakes and such. And possibly you have not yet understood your fault?

Father, I confess!

After all, we know how to get rockets to fly to other planets, but getting a definition of porn that accurate?

Again: Porn is material designed to aid people in masturbation. There is no vagueness about it.

You may hate pedophiles, but you cannot oppress a pedophile just because of being a pedophile if he has not committed any crime.

Fuck them, Mr. Contraian.

“Porn is material designed to aid people in masturbation. There is no vagueness about it.”

Sure there is. You come up and tell me that the magazine/video/show I am producing is pornographic under those terms and I simply reply “it’s not designed to aid people in masturbation.” Since I am the creator, I am the one who should know, after all. It all goes back to intent. Is Hustler designed as wank fuel? Hard to argue otherwise. But what about Victoria’s Secret catalogues or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issues? What about the non-nude lads mags with heavy busty bikini babes? What about a cute girl riding a horse bareback for the very deranged among us?

あらら、だから日本のことは日本語じゃないと説明しづらいと言ってるんですよ。あなたも日本語理解できるなら不都合ないでしょ。

answer in English*

So, leitmotiv, are you capable of rephrasing your original question in Japanese or not? I’d like to answer you in Japanese if possible.

If you’re not confident with your Japanese, I’ll try my best in English, but your original question is hard to understand in the first place. That’s why I asked.

And I don’t get what you mean by having my comment explained in Japanese by someone else, I don’t have any such intention.

fg,

この御仁は、いつも反論し辛い倫理的やモラルの極論の観点からネチネチと揚げ足取ってくるやり方の個人攻撃がしたいだけの荒らしだから、一旦日本語で言いたい事をしっかりと書き出した方が多分他の人にも伝わると思いますよ。自分も貴方の論点が結局何なのかちょっと分かりにくいですし。
あるいは完全スルーも一つの手ですが。

@fg

As you can tell from Overthinker’s first comment the link has been canceled, and I have not seen the actual footage of the DVD shop. Hence I said “We shouldn’t jump to easy conclusion.”

I didnt see video either. I have same info you do….namely the text from above which includes:

It was a video of a store that sold DVD’s of barely-clothed elementary school aged boys and girls.

The picture identifies it clearly as a sex shop.

What more info do you need to consider this “difficult” matter?

It is difficult because we don’t know the content of the DVDs.

I’m not claiming to know more than you do about this. Just read the text of the article. If it turns out that these are Mickey Mouse Club videos on sale at Kiddy Land in Omotesando, I am willing to change my mind. The available evidence (which is what you should also rely on for now), does not seem to support that. Until you figure that out, you seem to a japanese person who is astonishingly ambiguous on this clear topic and thus inviting more “orientalism” into the world.

What is the easiest to answer is fg’s question if you are capable of blah blah blah….

What is this trend among some Japanese to go off-topic and insist on staying off-topic? Odd.

@leitimov

Yes its pretty clear I already understood that, isn’t it? But thanks for your translational assistance that you apparently feel some need to push, even if unwarranted and unwanted.

I translated because you seemed to not understand why he was asking for Japanese, so I explained.

God, you must be a bore at parties.

I hear personal attacks give arguments up to a 40% boost in awesomeness.

Pro-tip: Read entirety of what you are commenting on before actually commenting. Its very clear in context of this thread article and his previous comment, even to non-native english speaker.

What is this trend among some Japanese to go off-topic and insist on staying off-topic? Odd.

It seems neither fg nor I understand it, and I’m a native English speaker as well btw.
I’ll assume you’re not confident in your Japanese.

What is this trend among some Japanese to go off-topic and insist on staying off-topic? Odd.

Off topic? The request for Japanese was for a better understanding of a question by you, hardy off topic. If anything, you’re the one that’s been going off topic by flinging insults and avoiding the question.

What exactly is your definition of child pornography?

Porn…Which, as you may know, is material designed for people to masturbate to… involving children.

Not exactly rocket science.

“Not exactly rocket science.”

No, rocket science is way easier. After all, we know how to get rockets to fly to other planets, but getting a definition of porn that accurate? Not a fucking hope.

Your question shows how ignorant and how self-righteous you are. Laws reflect the culture of the country. A DVD acceptable in one culture may not be acceptable or legal in another. Actually, there are a lot of US DVDs that are illegal pornography in Japan.

I have no objection against people who are conducting legal business. The answer is yes, I personally think sales of the above DVDs is acceptable, as long as they are legal.

But seriously I am rather shocked that somebody can guess what the content of the DVDs is on looking at the cover photos of them above.

Google the image of 子供 ふんどし, you’ll find several photos of barely naked boys and girls.

Let me ask,

Are the photos of the children in fundoshi pornography?
Are they child pornography if they are put in sex shop?

Are the photos above at the sex shop turn you on?

Did the camerman exploit the children on DVD?

Or rather are someone else using the films for pervert purpose without consent?

Or both?

And really what is the content of the DVDs above like?

You seem to know this kind of stuff at this kind of shop.
Please enlighten us what is really going on on DVDs at the shop like that. Honestly I think few of the readers really know it.

“And your answer shows how stunted your social development has been.”

Since when is stunted social development itself illegal? Is this a talk about what the LAW states is allowed, or what we think our MORALS allow?

To take another example, videos of naked children are legal if they are nudists in a nudist camp, for example. The fact that some people buy these videos to whack off to does not make them porn. That’s why the border is so blurred. Is it intent or use that defines porn? If intent, how can we really know the intent? If use, how can we account for the diversity of what people get off on? It’s much easier to build spaceships….

@ Overthinker

Is it intent or use that defines porn?

In the case described in above article, and for legal consideration, it is primarily intent. There are established legal thresholds to demonstrate intent in various types of crimes, I assume so for Japan as well. Intent to distribute pedophilic material is (to me) on pretty clear display in above article and I strongly suspect that by letter of Japan law the above case (as described) is not legal, but I dont know for sure. But the general intent to distribute pedophile material for financial gain is clearly wrong (morally) and illegal (legally) in advanced countries – even in in Japan. The level of abuse depicted can be assessed and used for sentencing. Even if no overt abuse is depicted, such material is still part of prosecution evidence for “intent” and “distribution for financial gain” and will have its own defined sentencing weight.

It stuns me that many of the denser commenters here seem unwilling to condemn this because of some misguided concern that the video “may not depict actual abuse” and thus the video by itself may not meet a legal definition of child porn (giving zero value to context, such as its offer for sale in a sex shop). As if the whole thing is a “difficult” matter that is off-limits to discussion by non-japanese and must be considered only within the context of Japan’s specific laws – which of course are extension of some unique cultural identity of Japan. Bollocks! There are plenty of Japanese citizens who would be pretty Mishima-style pissed-off to see this crap, whether legal or not. I happen to take their view. Its not encroaching Judeo-Christian values to condemn this (as some unencephalated commenter called “me” explains above)….its a common-fcuking-sense view in an advanced, wealthy society like Japan. Those japanese who argue otherwise (ponta) do their country’s image a huge disservice…..but of course will be first in line to complain about unfair depictions of japan in the next Newsweek article about pantsu getta clubs in akiba.

@Stereo

What do you mean by “getting it”?

Your “bewildered sophist” persona is amusing but also lame. You have already stated that you have no huge concern – outside of privacy invasion – about distributing wank material to pedophiles even if your own kids were involved, as long as the wank material is not specifically proscribed by a law in a book somewhere.

The answer is yes, I personally think sales of the above DVDs is acceptable, as long as they are legal.

There is no way to describe “getting it” to you, as you have made it clear you are devoid of the tools to understand. Discussing the matter further with you interests me less than a random bicycle accident in china. Go home to your cave.

Leitmotiv – your response to my question seems to indicate that the “intent” here is the distribution (sale) in a sex shop. That was not what I was getting at (and opens up more cans of worms, like can a producer of images be held responsible for where they are sold?). I was referring only to the actual production of the material itself.

(continued)
The questions are,
Is the child in the DVD engaged in real or simulated explicit sexual activities?
Did the DVD show sexual parts of the child?

If the answers are no to both questions, the DVDs are not child pornography regardless where they are sold, for what purpose people buy them, or whatever leitmotiv says.

@Stereo

Let me teach you something. This is a link to the child porn treaty.

OMFG…A UN treaty….yes, that carries a lot of weight in Japanese, US, etc courts. This should clear things up right away….Please proceed with your rigorous legal analysis Stereo!

If the answers are no to both questions, the DVDs are not child pornography regardless where they are sold, for what purpose people buy them

And you are quoting this supposedly relevant legal test (on text of a UN treaty!) from…um…..which court decision? Or is Stereo actually a judge?

Keep hitting those LSAT cram books….you have a ways to go I am afraid.

Leimotiv: “But the general intent to distribute pedophile material for financial gain is clearly wrong (morally) and illegal (legally) in advanced countries”

I know you are a liar. The treaty in my previous comment is what advanced nations agreed on child pornography, which is quite different from what you lie.

Each party to the treaty must establish national laws to criminalize child pornography in accordance with the treaty. Even US senate has ratified the treaty, meaning the US is bound by it. You cannot ignore a UN treaty once it gets binding, just like you cannot ignore Geneva Convention.

pixel_bomber, I am saying that they are probably not child pornography in terms of laws.
I know you do not like pedophiles. But you cannot ban materials falsely calling them child pornography if they are not child pornography indeed.

By the way, pedophilia is a sexual orientation. I do not know if a pedophile is responsible for his own sexual orientation. But if he is not responsible, discriminating a pedophile based on his sexual orientation is wrong as long as he does not commit underage rape.

I do not drink alcohol. I do not want my family to drink it. It is proven harmful and a lot of people ruin their life because of it. But I do not think alcohol should be banned. Likewise, I do not like my family to get videoed in lewd material. But that does not mean such materials should be banned.

OT:
“If the contents of the videos are legal they have a right to be defended.”

Defending the law may be a noble thing but you understand I am not talking about the law (and you did quote me). I am talking about the topic of this post “Disturbing DVD shop in Tokyo”. The topic is not about what porn is legal or not, it’s about what is disturbing. So I ask you the same question, would it be ok for your children to star in their own video that would be sold to pedophiles?

Also I’m not asking if something has the right to be defended I was asking why Stereo felt the need to defend them.

If you’re disturbed by this post, take James’ following advice and call the hotline.

“It may not be illegal, but if you think it should be, I suppose you can check out this recent Mainichi article for a hotline number you can call to complain about this kind of stuff.”

You should tell them that,
“It was a video of a store that sold DVD’s of barely-clothed elementary school aged boys and girls.”
but have not seen it.

And that it was in Tokyo.

“Thats your personal moral compass….the letter of a law?”

This is not an issue of morals, it is an issue of legality. And you are naive if you think morals never change. You clearly are far too close to the trees to see the forest, and are letting your own personal ideas about morality cloud your judgement.

“By your own stated protocol, what you are defending here is the humans who are collecting, distributing, and profiting from serving the pedophile market.”

As long as what they are doing is LEGAL, then YES. You clearly don’t understand the entire concept, and refuse to. It is not matter of agreeing with what they do, it is a matter of agreeing with the concept that what is legally allowed cannot be suppressed merely as some find it morally repugnant. But more to the point, as always, you have descended into attacks and abuse when someone doesn’t agree with you.

Stereo:

Ok I think I get the main point we differ on. I think this comment was in the spam filter because I did not see it earlier.

“By the way, pedophilia is a sëxual orientation. I do not know if a pedophile is responsible for his own sëxual orientation. But if he is not responsible, discriminating a pedophile based on his sëxual orientation is wrong as long as he does not commit underage r@pe.”

I do not agree that it is an orientation. I believe it to be a psychological disorder. I would say it is similar to someone with r@pe fantasies or a bestiality fetish. A sëxual fetish that focuses on a partner that is not a consensual sëxual partner. As you know it is against the law to have sëx with children, there is no such thing as consensual sëx between an adult and a child. Sure an adult might trick a child, but we both know that children do not have the capability to make this kind of choice. Having sëx with a child will always be wrong. A desire to have sëx with children is basically a desire to rape a child. And again I will say I am not asking people to be punished for having a psychological problem, but they need to take responsibility and get help. One of the problems I see with this material is that it is making them believe that they do not have a illness. I mean after all they can run down to the local sëx shop and buy a DVD of nearly naked little boys. It’s normal right? The fact is they are dealing with impulses to harm other people on a daily basis. Do you really have faith in all people being able to resist these urges without any outside help, especially if society is telling them it’s just a sëxual orientation?

In my opinion some sëxual preferences are just not ok. Any that involve hurting innocent people are just not acceptable. There is a lot of weird crazy stuff out there (thanks internet) and really I am fine with any of it that happens between consenting adults.

It is unfortunate that the legal system has yet to catch up with the people making this type filth. Either these are parents making videos of their children to be sold in sëx shops to perverts or these are videos created for other purposes that are being marketed as porn. Even if you are gullible enough to believe these videos are not created solely for the enjoyment of pedophiles it is at least an invasion of privacy. I’m sorry but even in this short clip here I have difficulty believing these children are not making (non-nude) sëxually enticing videos for pedophiles to pleasure themselves to.

And don’t forget this kind of stuff happens in other parts of the world as well. I know this blog is supposed to cover Japan, but exploitation of children is a global issue. I hope the Japanese users here don’t see this as an attack directed at Japan.

*Please excuse the misspellings, had problems with the spam filter.

According to your article, it is the president and others that were busted, not the company.

“So I guess it’s okay if it doesn’t contain any nudity?”

Read the article and the law you cited. The article is about the case that didn’t contain any nudity

“My standpoint is close to that of Stereo.”

Me too.

leitmotiv

when did Stereo support Child Abuse?

@ponta:

leitmotiv has declared the videos in question are pornography and therefore child abuse, kiddie porn and illegal.

stereo disagrees with leitmotiv’s assessment of the materials in question.

Therefore leitmotiv declares stereo in fact supports child abuse.

This is known as a “straw man argument”. It is a tactic commonly used by wingnuts who either never learned how to debate like an adult or else are losing an argument, have nothing left in their arsenal, and are forced to fall back to smearing their opponent.

Or, not to put too fine a point on it, trolls like “leitmotiv”.

Unfortunately not one of you – LB, ponta, and Stereo – can say that there is no significant danger of child abuse in those vids – and no danger of future damage for that matter. It has nothing to do with the depicted content (and I am quite sure LB is intelligent enough to grasp this but just likes to play contrarian troll, not even really believing his own words). If they are allowed by strict interpretation of law, then what you are all defending is the right to legally make a buck producing this stuff, create demand and market expansion for more vids….with predictable and inevitable consequence of child abuse in form of coercion, threats, intimidation, etc. And, of course, actual filmed sexual abuse always being a money-making temptation just around the corner for the same video producers when the competition gets heated and a new product is needed. Just look at how the adult porn industry works….why would it be different in a child version as a market grows? The same type of human vermin operate in both sectors.

There is no strawman here…just very very sad pseudo-intellectualism and meaningless cultural navel gazing.

Grow up and maybe have some children….the three of you.

leitmotiv

All the people here agree that child pornography is wrong, it is outrageous to sell the nudity of your child in a sex shop.

Besides some people are asking if the DVDs in question are p@rnography. You are attacking those people.

Some people argue that you can sell the film of the child as long as it is not against laws including the act of the anti child p@rnography. You are attacking those people.

Moreover you are talking about your nihon(jin)-ron and some gibberish about posters and some other things the posters are not talking about.

In general there is no way a public know these videos are sold in a sex shop unless they visit them. Your “musing”over the idea that a public visit the shops and are aware of the fact and organize some local yakuza types to close the shop is just nonsense.

I am not sure if you are outraged because you often visit this kind of shop and watch it.
But I understand you don’t want to see this kind of stuff sold in a sex shop.

However, practically as far as I know, there is no way to make the shop stop selling it unless it is pornographic and it violates other laws.
That is why it is important to know if they are p@rnography.

“There is no clear answer whether the videos constitute “porn” by legal definition. ”

I’ve been asking what you think.
Do you think they are p@rnography. Does the photos on the cover turn you on? It is a question, as simple as the question whether you can comprehend and write Japanese.

Under what law do you think you can stop them selling the DVD if it is not p@rnographic.

“From your own words・・・”
From which words? You’ve been twisting posters’ words several times.

“The extent that you are unable/unwilling ・・・・”

You’ll be shocked and your child will be distressed if the videos of your kids are sold at a sex shop.
We all agree with that.

But whether the video are exploitative, abusive and unacceptable depends on the content of it and under what condition they are filmed.
There are a lot of photos and videos, for instance ,showing child tarento and　child candidate for talento . Not all of them are unacceptable, though there might be exploitative elements in them,

That’s why I’ve asking you whether the videos are p@rnograpic and under what condition they are filmed.

Do you think they are p@rnography.

In my one opinion, yes of course I do constitute child pornography. That opinion has nothing to do with legal definition of porn. I also think they clearly depict child endangerment and exploitation for profit from a pedophile market.

And your personal opinion about the videos acceptability is….?

Does the photos on the cover turn you on?

Another sad baiting attempt by ponta, who has run out of arguments to cover his lack of judgment and support for child endangerment.

Under what law do you think you can stop them selling the DVD if it is not p@rnographic.

I am quite sure I cannot stop them. Only Japanese society collectively can stop them. But, to answer your question…..how about anti-child abuse/exploitation laws? Child protection laws? I know Japan has some….not that they are doing much good in this case.

Its funny that you and a few other representatives of Japanese public here who support this child endangerment by refusing to consider the predictable and obvious POSSIBILITY of abuse of children used in the videos. Yet at the same time its also the same Japanese public that tacitly supports the occasional backward hotel, onsen, gym etc that refuse non-japanese customers because of the ABSTRACT POSSIBILITY that there will be some undefined communication problem or just make someone “uncomfortable”.

Very backward set of priorities you have, ponta.

That doesn’t answer why you didn’t call the hotline yourself.

Is it because you’re a foreigner or because you can’t speak Japanese? Or maybe you don’t really care as much as you talk about it.

OK, I understand some of your personal problems. But right in the beginning, ponta offered to call but you did not encourage him, you slandered him.
With your high level of moral standards I don’t understand why you would do that.

fg, ajapa

Read entire exchange.

Higher morals are not required to be concerned about flagrant child exploitation. Just some morals.

leitmotiv

”Does the photos on the cover turn you on?

Another sad baiting attempt by ponta, who has run out of arguments to cover his lack of judgment and support for child endangerment.”

紹介した日本の法律の児童ポルノの定義を読んでいないのですか？

　” 三 　衣服の全部又は一部を着けない児童の姿態であって性欲を興奮させ又は刺激するものを視覚により認識することができる方法により描写したもの”

　ちゃんと議論しましょうね。

で、leitmotivさんの場合は、これらの画像により性欲を興奮させられたわけですね？

”Do you think they are p@rnography.
In my one opinion, yes of course ”

ここらへんが、leitmotivさんとのちがいでしょうね。
一番目に取り上げているのは、太った少年。
体操着で水着姿
2番目に取り上げているのは、美少年と題される少年。
半ズボンないし水着で、上半身は裸。
3番目は4才の少年
甚平姿や水着姿
4番目は龍くん。
体操着、水着姿にふんどし姿

特に性器の強調もなければ、セックスを想起させる姿態もとっていない。
これらを猥褻と認定するのはやはり無理があるのではないでしょうか？
Stereo氏が引用するアメリカの法律の定義を参照にしてください。

写真だけでleitmotivさんの基準を適用すると、例えば、
http://linmoore.blogspot.com/2007/07/seattle-day-3-cousins.html#comments
「かわいいお尻たちがホットタブめざして階段を登っていく。
Then everyone stripped down and headed for the hot tub.」
こんな画像まで猥褻画像として認定されかねない。また、以前、紹介した褌の姿の少年少女も同様です。

むしろ、leitmotivさんの反対されているのは、こうしたたわいのない子供の写真をアダルトショップで大人の性の対象にすること、ということではないでしょうか？

”As I just said…I am quite sure I (or other foreigners) cannot stop them. Only Japanese society collectively can stop them.”
もちろん、最終的には日本人が判断し、行動するわけですが、leitmotivさんほど、いうところの児童ポルノをしばしば目撃し、また、高い道徳的価値を唱道している人が、ご自身が犯罪や不適切行為だと思っているものを目撃しながら、警察や関連機関に通報もしなかったというのは、道徳的にいかがなものか？という疑問は残ります。

例えば、日本で、ある女性が電車の中で痴漢にあっていても、同様な理由で、警察に通報しないわけですね？

また、leitmotivさんは、アメリカ人として、アメリカにおける獣姦のポルノあるいは、幼児ポルノなどについては抗議しているわけですね？

アメリカ人の一般公衆はこうしたことに気づきながらなぜ、暴力団風の団体を組織して抗議しないのか、驚き、嘆いているわけですね。

Ah, your point is “Would it be seen as erotic if they were fully clothed?”. Yeah, cheerleaders are wholesome.

Just imagine she is in the backyard with a masculine football coach. You are peeping…

After overthinking on this topic, I now start to consider that cheerleaders are wholesome regardless of their clothing status. Someone (not a Japan defender) said “I don’t think I’m not a straw man.” Neither do I. My leading motive is anti-Pedophilia but not Japanophobia.

By and large I agree with you. Someone who experiences sexual gratification by watching videos or looking at pictures or reading a story about sex involving children is, psychologically and morally, a pedophile.

But…

Does the mere act of wanking off in private to a photo of a clothed child, or an unclothed line drawing, or a bunch of typed words on a page constitute an act that so endangers themselves, people around them, or society, that it needs to be a crime for which one can be arrested and punished? I realize there’s a lot of emotion around the issue, and as I said above I find the mere idea of, say, masturbating to a manga featuring a child or child-like character repugnant. But I am at the same time completely unwilling to throw out notions such as “presumption of innocence” and try, incarcerate and stick a scarlet letter on someone’s chest, for life, just because of what they are thinking. Now, if someone has actual video or photos of children having sex or being raped, then yes – lock them up and throw away the key. They are either victimizing children directly or indirectly by having such materials.

And again, you are right – watching Natural Born Killers will not make one a murderer. Fantasizing about murdering someone you know does not make one a murderer. Logic and reason tell us that merely thinking about doing something is not the same as actually doing it. As Shimada Shinsuke famously countered when an actress accused him of adultery for looking at another woman in a sexual way: “If I am waiting in the bank, and someone walks in with a huge bag of cash to deposit, and I look at the money and think ‘boy I’d like to have that kind of cash’, have I just committed a bank robbery?”

Desire and intent are not crimes. They are factors to consider when deciding on a punishment for someone who has acted on those impulses and harmed someone, but in and of themselves they mean nothing. And yet, there are people out there, and indeed right here posting, who are willing to let their moral outrage overcome reason by saying “but these people are different. Their desire will, unquestionably, lead them to claim a victim. Therefore we must preemptively arrest, try, and convict them for their thoughts. Lock them away, punish them for life and start now before they can hurt someone.”

That train of thought is deeply disturbing. Governments and societies have been down that path before, and it never seems to stop at “this one group that is outside the pale” once a given group is agreed upon as being “deserving” of profiling and “preemptive action” based on some “tendency” or “predisposition” to an anti-social behavior, whether they are actually engaging in that behavior or not.

LB:

Good response. I think really in most respects we actually agree with each other. I think you misinterpret my intent however as far as punishment. I never said I want to punish people for their thoughts. My whole point here aside from the fact that these videos are harmful to children (clothed or not) was that pedophilia is a sickness and people should be made to realize that rather than feed their illness with creepy videos and manga. Don’t lock up people who have not committed a crime yet, but if you can get them psychological help that will prevent them from acting out and maybe make their life better then it should be done.

Sorry I don’t have time for a longer response at the moment, I just wanted to be clear on that one point.

Actually, I watched the YouTube thing and those videos all looked pretty tame to me.

Great. Your “I [heart] child abuse” t-shirt is in the mail.

As long as no one is hurt or seriously exploited, I think outlets like these can be justified.

And you are so sure that no coercion or threats could possibly ever be involved…….how? Do these kids get SAG cards or something? These are kids….one of them in the youtube is clearly ~4 years old.

What on earth is wrong with you?

“I especially was struck by the shirtless 8-year old wearing a jock-strap and seductively holding the peeled banana”

なーーーるほーーーーど、全く気にとめませんでしたが・・・・
leitmotivさんには、バナナをseductively に持っている、と見えるわけですね。
勉強になります。同じように感じるだろう幼児性愛者もいるかもしれませんね。
しかし、大変ですな、幼児性愛者の空想する世界というのも、バナナを持っている子供をみるたびに、seduce しているようにみえるとしたら。

公衆の場所で、バナナを子供に食べさせる親や大人の存在を、もしかして、leitmotivさんはアメリカ社会の道徳の荒廃として、嘆いておられるのでしょうか？
あるいは、アメリカではバナナを子供に公衆の場所で食べさせることを禁止する運動でもあるんでしょうか？

”“Dragon boy” on the bed with his balloons was also a nice touch”

さて、風船は何を象徴しているのでしょうか？
幼児性愛者の空想する世界というのが解読しがたいので、できればご教示いただけますか？

I agree, an innocent photo is the one you send to your grandmother. A non-innocent one is one that you sell to pedophiles. But so far I have not debated that there is any problem with family photos that might involve kids in swim wear, I have some myself.

I completely agree.
It’s about the intent here. I posted something about this earlier but it is still in the spam filter, maybe it will show up later. What do you think the odds are these videos were made innocently? I’ve never heard of anyone wanting a DVD of their own kid posing in swimwear. We are talking about staged photo shoots not family videos. Do you honestly believe there is something innocent going on here?

“What do you think the odds are these videos were made innocently?”

I don’t know about videos but what do you think are the odds the photos like the followings were made and publicized innocently on the internet

http://linmoore.blogspot.com/2007/07/seattle-day-3-cousins.html#comments
「かわいいお尻たちがホットタブめざして階段を登っていく。
Then everyone stripped down and headed for the hot tub.

“We are talking about staged photo shoots not family videos”

http://youkoso.city.matsumoto.nagano.jp/modules/wordpress/attach/DSCF0011_03.jpg

I am not sure if they are staged or not but sometimes people pose when you take a picture.

「裸祭り」は堀米（ほりごめ）（松本市島立地区）の氏神である津島神社（つしまじんじゃ）のお祭りです。

At fundoshi fesitival

小学生の男子がもっこふんどし姿で幟旗（のぼりばた）を担ぎながら地区内を練り歩きます。昭和６３年に長野県無形民俗文化財に指定されました。津島神社は、江戸時代中期に尾張一宮の津島神社から勧請（かんじょう）された神社で、古代インドの守護神「牛頭天王（ごずてんのう）」（疫病除けの神）をまつっています。ふんどし姿になるのは、悪霊を威嚇（いかく）するためだそうです。

Elementary school boys walk down the street・・・・ They wear fundoshi, it is said, in order to threat demons.

”Also I might add if they are selling DVDs of family videos in sex shops I’m fairly sure that is an invasion of privacy and breaking some kind of law.”

It is not unreasonable to assume that someone sells the photos of the festival or the photos of their cute children.

However, if someone photographed them secretly or copied the photos ,and sell them without consent, perhaps it violates some laws.

The problem arises when someone sell them at a sex shop because it is most likely they will be the object for pedophiles.

To regulate it by law will probably involve difficult technical questions. I guess it is not simple in this regard.

But you can report to the police(—that’s an easy thing to do, for a foreigner as well as a Japanese—)and Japanese police will work on it though they might not be able to arrest the related people based on laws.

The debate on this topic is fine as long as some people don’t make wrong assumptions about Japan and Japanese. Unfortunately some people do.

The problem is global .
There are pedophiles in the world and we need to tackle the issue.The abuse of the children is unforgivable.
There are laws to prevent it.
We all agree.

But there are also differences.
For instance, perhaps there are different attitudes toward child nudity. And perhaps the crimes rate of child rape will also makes differences.