Oh please…..

No, I don’t have a source for this right now.

You mean the herbal remedy website where you read that crap is not up this week?

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Don’t worry, the crap called Hygene Hypothesis is still available on Swedish Medical, Science Daily, MedicineNet and many other sites.

http://www.swedish.org/19371.cfm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070905174501.htm
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32441

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I found two examples that grew up in an overly “clean” environment and have developed a twisted immune system in his mind…

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helical,

I heard that things are determined mostly in infancy, assuming that the Hygene Hypothesis is right, hence it may be somewhat subtle matter in this regard.

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Hygiene hypothesis (not “Hygene”)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

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And a FDA’s explanation:

“Asthma: The Hygiene Hypothesis”
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ResourcesforYou/Consumers/ucm167471.htm

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No that stuff is reasonably well-known…though certainly far from being some sort of proven immunological rule (note the word “hypothesis”). In fact the opposite is also journalistically noted for so-called “hygenic” countries – hyperactive immune systems apparently from OVERexposure to a variety of newly emerging allergens including proteins from cockroaches and other environmental pollutants.

The tenor of your comment

Some practices may be just sanitary, but the current anti-bacterial obsession in Japan seems to be undermining the ability for kids (and adults) to build up these natural defenses with minute exposures to a variety of microbes.

…is clearly implying that Japanese kids are somehow at increased autoimmune risk than their peers outside Japan due to a “current antibacterial obsession in Japan”. That is crap and unsupported by your links. If you mean globally, then say “globally”…not “Japan”.

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Well we also have an obsession for anti-bacterial soaps in the U.S. too, lets not forget. It’s not just in Japan. Everywhere you go in the U.S., they have anti-bacterial everything, from wipes to soaps to sprays to gels.

In fact, if it was such a “benign” thing, then why are all the hospitals in the U.S. stocked to the brim with anti-bacterial stuff all over? They even have people standing at the Entrance/Admittance Receptions handing out wipes and offering dollops of anti-bacterial gels to wipe your hands before you walk in any deeper into the facility. All of the bathrooms in medical centers and hospitals are all stocked with anti-bacterial soaps. If you’re coughing or sneezing severely, they are handing out masks and ask that you put it on before you walk in any further.
It’s actually a wonder to me that we don’t do this outside in the real world in the U.S.

Leitmotiv, thanks for pointing out the “Hypothesis” aspect.

I have allergies myself – but they are not the kind that developed from what Helical described, in the above. They are not even related to any germs or virii. Helical, I’d be seriously worried about the kind of education you’ve been getting. All I have are certain types of grasses and food allergies that got worse over time due to my age and change in my physicality. Not from germs or virii. You need to check your sources.

When I mentioned Flu with the common cold, it’s only to illustrate that there is no harm in using masks at all times, especially when one’s immune system is being compromised. No harm in added protection. Not that a simple mask is enough to stop certain virii from getting through, it certainly would stop some of the extreme spraying of saliva germs that get shot at 70MPH out of our mouths and noses.

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Ajapa,

Thanks for the correction.
It seems to be the case that susceptibility to asthma is determined in one’s infancy as you say, but that article doesn’t mention if that’s the case for other forms of allergies.

leitmotiv,

I did mention “tend to…” as a way of qualifying the observed trend of the Hygiene Hypothesis as not being a universal law, but maybe I was too subtle there.

…is clearly implying that Japanese kids are somehow at increased autoimmune risk than their peers outside Japan due to a “current antibacterial obsession in Japan”. That is crap and unsupported by your links. If you mean globally, then say “globally”…not “Japan”.

Putting aside your obsession with crap, what I can tell you that I’ve only noticed in Japan that 抗菌 (antibacterial) coatings is advertised on all imaginable items, from vacuum cleaners to clothes hangers to train cabin handlebars.
I remember the odd scene in the news of Japanese salarymen being forced to wipe their shoes on mats soaked with antibacterial disinfectant with the last avian flu scare.
There are endless anecdotal stories of Japanese parents shielding their kids from any exposure to dirt and mud as being filthy and germ-ridden, much to the chagrin of farmers.
None of the people I knew back in North America had home germ-killing air cleaners, but that seems to be a hot item in Japanese home electronics stores.

I believe these constitutes somewhat of a nationwide anti-bacterial/anti-viral obsession, and I have not seen things of this degree in my time living in North America.

Now are you saying you want me to expand those observations about Japan into a sweeping generalization about kids throughout the world? Would it have been better if I clarified that it merely was my opinion that the development of the immune systems of Japanese kids were being undermined, and I was not making any statements in whichever way regarding kids elsewhere?

PewPew,

I think you misunderstood me.
When I mentioned “benign”, I was referring to non-infectious substances like pollen, housedust, or grass as you mention.

I never mentioned anything about people being allergic to microbes.
What I did mention was the Hypothesis where early exposure to microbes will teach the immune system that that is something to look out for, instead of attacking things like pollen and grass.

I had meant to use the trend of allergies being more common in the developed world as an indicator that, the immune systems of kids weren’t being properly trained to respond to real infections. Because of the awareness and sensitivity to cleanliness, Japan in particular, I gave my opinion that kids weren’t being exposed enough to these diseases so that they could build an immunity.
The point of this was that I was trying to say “person”’s comment had some merit.

My explanation was also lacking for the flu.
It’s true that the common cold mutates too much to make a cure, but the flu seems to be something that one can build an immunity to — though it may take decades to accumulate all the antibodies for the iterations that the flu virus can take.
It has been observed that the elderly over 60 tend to have a greater immunity to the H1N1 virus, and this has been theorized that this is because they survived the Spanish Flu in 1918, which was also a variation the H1N1 virus.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/18/science/sci-flu-mysteries18

If they were shielded from it (without vaccines) back then as people are now, perhaps there would have been more that survived it but there would have been a lower rate of H1N1 immune elderly today.

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PewPew,

It’s true that helical did not give a precise description of the Hygiene hypothesis and there are some indication that he is actually misunderstanding a little, but…

Helical, I’d be seriously worried about the kind of education you’ve been getting.

This statement can hardly be acceptable. Actually, it is you who must check various articles provided for the hypothesis as you have shown a complete misconception on this matter.

To speak for your and helical’s benefit, please don’t take it seriously to talk with a person who is suspected to be pathologically hypersensitive to allergens like “Japan”, “Japan defenders”, and so on.

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I hadn’t imagined that helical’s comment was awaiting for its appearance when I posted my comment at 2009-12-01 17:27:46.

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@helical
Now are you saying you want me to expand those observations about Japan into a sweeping generalization about kids throughout the world?

The observations you made about hygeine hypothesis, yes. These cites articles dont discuss it being a predominantly japan phenomenon. That is your own projection.

Would it have been better if I clarified that it merely was my opinion that the development of the immune systems of Japanese kids were being undermined, and I was not making any statements in whichever way regarding kids elsewhere?

Yes. I think that opinion completely lacks supporting evidence, but yes it would have been better.

@Ajapa

To speak for your and helical’s benefit, please don’t take it seriously to talk with a person who is suspected to be pathologically hypersensitive to allergens like “Japan”, “Japan defenders”, and so on.

What on earth are you talking about?

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More @ helical

…what I can tell you that I’ve only noticed in Japan that 抗菌 (antibacterial) coatings is advertised on all imaginable items, from vacuum cleaners to clothes hangers to train cabin handlebars.
…. Japanese salarymen being forced to wipe their shoes on mats soaked with antibacterial disinfectant ….anecdotal stories of Japanese parents shielding their kids from any exposure to dirt and mud as being filthy and germ-ridden,….

I think you are vastly over-analyzing this phenomenon. What evidence is there that these fad gadgets actually reduce pathogen exposure to a degree that would invite Hygeine Hypothesis (if true)?. The answer is that there is scant, if any, “evidence”. You think the jerks that marketed the recent anti-H1N1 air-conditioners, face masks, etc have conducted any kind of meaningful or rigorous test to show decreased exposure/infection of pathogens to humans? How could you even feasibly test that? All these manufacturers have to do is spill some germs on one side of their gadget, disinfectant, bathroom mat, etc and see if less germs are on it later. If so, the loathesome PR literature and branding then can begin. When you see these things getting FDA or PMDA approval, then you can start your pondering about links to Hygeine Hypothesis. Until then, its just a marketing gimmick for gullible consumers. Japan’s culture makes its consumers particularly gullible to anti-germ marketing. My guess is a kid in Japan whose parents religiously rig his environment with this stuff reduce his overall exposure by a few percent – at best.

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Are you a predominantly japan phenomenon?

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helical,

No disrespect. Honestly. And ajapa, I was expressing sincere concern about his “opinion” on thing like this that he said:

“I had meant to use the trend of allergies being more common in the developed world as an indicator that, the immune systems of kids weren’t being properly trained to respond to real infections. Because of the awareness and sensitivity to cleanliness, Japan in particular, I gave my opinion that kids weren’t being exposed enough to these diseases so that they could build an immunity.”

This is, I must stress, is an absolute NO, a total and utter “paranoia” assumption, with absolutely no proof whatsoever about why people “seem” to be more allergic than the “old days.”
The more common “assumption” theory is that we now KNOW more about specific types of allergies and who gets them, and the percentage in the population of both Doctors who are experienced and knowledgeable, as well as people who frequently visit Doctors for examinations for all kinds of things like allergies and basic viral infections, it just “seems” that we have more of the information available. There is no proof that people have lost their immunity due to their non-exposure. People literally did not go to Doctors in the very old days, and the Doctors also did not know as much as we do now, even in the first half of the 20th Century. In fact, back in the old days, people literally stayed at home when they even got a slight cold or sneezing from what we now know as allergies and you never saw them. Also, those basic “illnesses” were never reported as case studies of anything proper like “caused by allergies” but were dismissed as “you’ll be fine in a day or so.”

You should visit the U.S. The paranoia about germs is exactly as described. We have toilet seat covers, for crying out loud. You still don’t see that too often in Japan. In the U.S., all you have to do is watch 60 Minutes or some show like that once in a while, and they will extensively examine the medical industry, as well as this problem of allergies that is widespread and is problematic, costing Billions of Dollars a year.

helical, earlier you said:
“Some practices may be just sanitary, but the current anti-bacterial obsession in Japan seems to be undermining the ability for kids (and adults) to build up these natural defenses with minute exposures to a variety of microbes.”

This really bothers me.
Once again, what ability to defend against what infectious disease/bacterial infection ? Cholera? Typhoid? Camplyobacter? Helicobacter? E-Coli? Salmonella? Smallpox?
You make it sound like us humans have become some super- beings that have become immune to all kinds of microbes. WE HAVEN’T. Please don’t say what you’re saying. Seriously, in the First World countries like the U.S. and Japan and others, we have simply become CLEANER with regular washing and access to clean water and clean facilities with the good common practice of being able to wash; and we also gets shots for various things like the Mumps, Polio and so on when we are infants – but we are, actually, quite susceptible to getting sick from really basic stuff all around our households, offices and public spaces if people are not also doing their bit to clean the areas as well as themselves.
Look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease
How you become immune to them naturally, I don’t know. May be some jungle tribes have been living as they are for so long because they’re clean,in the sense that they take care of what they have and keep taking care of what they have and they don’t stray too far nor mix too much with the outside.
We haven’t figured out the common cold yet, and I don’t think we’re ever meant to.

So helical, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but you scare me.

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PewPew,

We must often argue about topics on presupposition that many diseases are not caused only by a single habit, by a custom, nor by genetic reasons alone. And please don’t overreact to a rather modest and casual remark which might have just made for counter-argument and debate.

This is, I must stress, is an absolute NO, a total and utter “paranoia” assumption, with absolutely no proof whatsoever about why people “seem” to be more allergic than the “old days.”

So, you have numerous empirical evidence enough to make such a very strong claim, right? Your claim is that the hygiene hypothesis is completely irrelevant and the amount of exposure to the virus in infancy gives absolutely no contribution to the allergies nor the development of immune systems, definitely, right?

This really bothers me.
Once again, what ability to defend against what infectious disease/bacterial infection ? Cholera? Typhoid? Camplyobacter? Helicobacter? E-Coli? Salmonella? Smallpox?
You make it sound like us humans have become some super- beings that have become immune to all kinds of microbes. WE HAVEN’T….

Oversimplification and then exaggeration. Pointless argument and harsh conclusion. One of the important points is basically, the possibility of malfunctioning, insufficiency, retardation, and such, of already acquired and/or innate systems and mechanisms of a human body. Become some super-beings… Who said? Do you really understand the hygiene hypothesis after all?

Also understand that helical never explicitely denied contribution of improved sanitary conditions to decrease of child mortality and various positive effects.

So helical, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but you scare me.

A funny statement. You never got any decent science education, of course, I mean absolutely NO disrespect but YOU look HYSTERICAL.

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