In other words, the law was changed so that the US government cannot unilaterally decide “Person X naturalized in another country and so is no longer a US citizen”. Now the person in question must demonstrate that they intend to give up US citizenship. I think this is where Gaijin is confused.

There is nothing in US law prohibiting an individual from renouncing. But there are clear US laws regarding what must be done when someone renounces – their name must be recorded in the Congressional Register for that year, and the State Department must issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality to the individual.

I think if they had driven him nuts it would have been obvious well before the election stage….

It used to be as you think, and I can tell you are an overthinker, that you could lose your American citizenship but losing your citizenship and renouncing it are totally different subjects. Yes for political reasons they let you renounce it but no they do not allow you to lose it. I’ve spoken with various U.S. consulate generals and even a few others high up in the state department who have all informed that the new policy is once a citizen always a citizen. The process of renouncing it formally or informally is irrelevant.

It’s basically a safeguard policy that came about to prevent foreigners or even native citizens from using and abusing the privileges of U.S. citizenship. The beginning time era of this existing policy is somewhere 1980-1990. Of course the formal process of renouncing once citizenship has to be there for political expedience to address the international intricacies of dual citizenship. This the logic of the current policy. Let’s just have a policy that prevents U.S. citizens from losing their U.S. citizenship. The perfect example being this latest case of the abduction involving this Savoie fellow who came to retrieve his children and was arrested by the Japanese police. He renounced his U.S. citizenship to become Japanese and yet now his living in the U.S. as a full fledged U.S. citizen. Case in Point.

If it had not been for Sarah Palin I would not have minded if McCain took the White House. He seemed a decent chap. Obama seems good too, I think. Aside from Palin, who gave me the shits, I wouldn’t have minded WHO got in the White House. Though Hilary Clinton was a bit scary too.

I understand the state department has a link with a detailed explanation of how to renounce your citizenship but in fact U.S. citizens can fill out this form and renounce their citizenship but it’s still impossible to actually renounce your citizenship. It’s is easy to renounce your permanent residency status but you still have taxation and military obligations for 10 years. I’ve heard this directly from several consulate generals of Japan in the past 20 years. Basically the U.S. assumes that anyone that is going through this detailed process of renouncing their citizenship is doing so under duress and so they’ve set up internal fail safe procedures to protect against this.

I believe all permanent residents of any country should have the right to vote. It’s not as if we just got of a plane as a tourist and were handed permanent resident visas. It took 5 years of living in Japan without any trouble before I was even eligible to apply. It then took another year and a half after the application before it was granted. All totaled over 6 years. I think that the right to vote is a reasonable right for all permanent residents. I don’t think that non permanent residents or illegal aliens should have voting rights. In any case there’s not much I can do about it other than complain at the present time because I can’t vote to try and change it.

I’ll also continue to be an American citizen and continue to vote in every presidential election as well. Aren’t you at least a little relieved that I helped keep McCain and Palin away from the White House? No matter what people say for or against president Obama imagine if right now we had Sarah Palin running around Washington D.C. with her hunting buddies. Voting is very important even if at times it is boring. I’d definitely vote to keep the LDP from coming back to power in Japan as well. The LDP never even considered giving permanent residents the right to vote. I think prime minister Hatoyma is The Man.

US citizens living overseas are required to file a Federal income tax return, yes, but if you make less than about 80,000 USD a year you have no tax obligation. If you make more than that amount but are paying income taxes to the country you live in, you get credit for the taxes on any amount over the 80,000 USD you earned. This is all spelled out in the 1040 book you get every year.

So, now that we’ve established conclusively you don’t know whereof you speak…

@Overthinker – the “10 year tax obligation for renouncing US citizenship” is only for those who are determined to have renounced their citizenship for tax reasons. It was part of a law aimed at the “Yacht people”, wealthy Americans who lived offshore and were thus able to deduct that 80K I mentioned above. If the US government determines that your primary reason for renouncing citizenship is to get out of paying US taxes you are held responsible for the taxes on 100% of your income (no 80K deduction) for the next 10 years and permanently banned from ever re-entering the US.

There have been questions raised about how the State Department, which handles renunciations, would be able to determine one’s tax liability as the IRS is specifically prohibited by Federal law from sharing specific individual’s income and tax information with other Federal or State agencies. There is apparently an allowance made for criminal investigations that specifically involve tax fraud, but if one has been paying their taxes properly that allowance should not be applicable. In theory, but we are talking about the government…

They do note, however, that you may still incur tax and military responsibilities. I believe that tax requirements last for ten year following renunciation of citizenship. However I doubt Debito needs to worry – I don’t think he can even afford a computer printer….

I am surprised the US still retains selective service. Glad I’m not American. Nor do I agree with the tax=voting rights idea (although perhaps for local elections), although since that ethos is one of the founding catch-cries of the US, with No Taxation Without Representation, I am not surprised to see an American in support of it. But then I don’t even care enough about the political process to vote where I am eligible, so would probably only vote in Japan for the novelty of it and then get bored.

However, if living and paying taxes in a foreign country means you should have the right to vote, why does not living and not paying taxes in your own country mean you should be able to vote just by being a citizen? On the one hand, the argument is that those most affected by the government should have a say in it, and on the other the criterion is simply citizenship.

A little over 20 years ago there was a major shift in U.S. state department policy. Americans can no longer renounce their citizenship or evade citizenship’s legal obligations and responsibilities. Debito or any other American can become Japanese. Pledge allegiance to the emperor and burn the American flag but they are still technically American. Getting back your U.S. citizenship is not even the question because you can’t lose it. The only way that a U.S. citizen could ever lose their U.S. citizenship would be to join the North Korean Army or some other hostile nation or terrorist group to the U.S.

This U.S. citizenship used to be quite different more than 30 years ago during and before the cold war but the state department made a drastic shift in policy in this regards. I don’t think that many of the underlings or flunkies in the State department are even aware of this policy clearly. But if you talk with any consulate general around the world that is in the know they’ll give you the correct and current policy. Which is once a U.S. citizen always a U.S. citizen until death do us part. Whether you like it or not. The same goes for all of thousands of Japanese babies that are born in the U.S. And then the parents register their birth. They have become American and when they become 18 they are legally required to register for the selective service if they are male. Although this isn’t being enforced all that much their may come a day when the U.S. starts calling these young men into service. And if they don’t register they may extradite a few back to the U.S. and prosecute them to set an example. Japanese and other foreigners that think they are so smart in having their children born in the U.S. so that they become U.S. citizens upon birth have absolutely no idea what the obligations of being a U.S. citizen entail. Debito may have renounced his U.S. citizenship but he’s still a U.S. citizen and if he’s making good money in the future as a talent he’d better file a U.S. tax return and pay his taxes or it’s possible he might be made an example of by the I.R.S. Yes, they can do that and sometimes they do.

In Europe and America, consciously or unconsciously Asians and Africans are likely to be considered foreigners. In Japan, white and black people are likely to be considered foreigners.
(mostly because of history and the rate of the population, methinks.)
In this respect, 王貞治、和田アキ子 are easy to be looked upon as Japanese whether they like it or not.Besides, they speak Japanese just like other Japanese. They are far more talented than Japanese but they know how to behave, how to deal with things just like Japanese.

ベッキー and other people of mixed race are interesting cases.
Though there are still some people who take them as non-Japanese, more and more people have no hesitation to think of them as Japanese. In the meantime, some people of mixed race feel isolated ;they think, act like Japanese but just because they look different, they are treated different. It really takes time for society to change the perception but I hope that they will overcome identity crisis and realize that there are many people who want to help them.

On the other hand, if someone does not look like most of Japanese and he does not read, write Japanese, he does not know how to deal like Japanese, he excludes Japanese people, he encourage foreigners to sell demagogue about Japan, there is little chance he will be considered Japanese even if he gets Japanese citizenship.

Sorry for the typo and the wrong placement. I can be a S.H. so you might be right about that.

I do feel that tax paying non-citizen permanent residents should have the right to vote in any country. Not just Japan. I’m glad that prime minister Hatoyama has a reasonable and intelligent attitude in this regard as well.

If any particular country that I happen to reside in wants to exclude me from the electoral process then they should also exclude me from the taxation process as well.

I do vote in U.S. presidential elections and I’ll also file my U.S. tax return every year and pay taxes in my home country. Americans am not allowed to renounce my U.S. citizenship and even if I were to throw away my passport and try and claim I am not a U.S. citizen (I’m a true American patriot so this will never happen) I’d still be liable to file a U.S. tax return every year. I wonder if famous people like Debito are filing his. It is possible at some point an time people such as him could be extradited back to the U.S. and brought up on federal tax evasion charges if they have undeclared income. The U.S. I.R.S. occasionally likes to just pick people out of the blue and make them squeal to set an example for the rest of us. So it’s just not as simple as becoming a Japanese citizen for me so that I have the right to electoral representation in the country that I’m legally permitted to reside in. I’m American with all of the obligations and responsibilities that this comes with no matter where I reside or what I chose. And that’s just the way it’s going to be until I die. God Bless America!

That doesn’t mean that I really care all that much one way or another until something extreme happens that might result in giving up my la la land surreal existence of complacency.

Bottom line is that I’m extremely happy that I may be given the right to vote in the near future in Japan. I’m also enthused that all other tax paying permanent resident holders will likewise be given the right to vote. It’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it. It’s not Tough. It’s Easy and It’s Righteous.

Thank you! Well said.

People just want to HATE Japan, don’t they? They’re craaaaazy!

And are you also so thick that you cannot read “reply to this comment” and keep each topic in its correct place?

“I have no intention of becoming a citizen of Japan. But I am obligated to pay taxes. I feel that I should have the right to vote and be represented.”

“I was going to write out a longer reply, but I think it can be better encapsulated in one word:
Tough.”

It’s not Tough at all. It’s easy. I’m not a whiner. I’m completely happy with my situation. But that’s only because so far there hasn’t been legislation forcing sterilization of all gaijins in Japan. I know that I could probably go through the long arduous process of becoming a Japanese Citizen so that I could vote. But it seems troublesome to me and I always chose the path of least resistance. I’m so happy that Hatoyama was elected and he is seriously considering contributing to my easy path. If I do end up with complete voting rights with nothing other than my permanent resident visa he and his party will definitely have my vote unless they want to sterilize me.

Based on what? You seriously don’t think the majority of Japanese think that the Japanese invasion of China was a bad thing?

“the increasing tolerance of anti-Korean and anti-Chinese remarks by conservative politicians”

Here’s a good debate tactic – toss in “increasing” when you mean you are seeing more. Is this tolerance in fact increasing? Is it proportional to any rise in anti-Japan statements? What exactly constitutes an “anti” China/Korea statement?

“the perceptions of Japan’s neighbors in the media generally trend towards criticism”

Criticism of Koreans littering beaches, for example, is not denial of Korean suffering in the war. Nor should the two ever be conflated. Also, “generally” is a rather vague word as well. A lot of the stuff Japan Probe picks up on is critical, as the blog is designed to get comments and debate.

And re the historians, “if that is true” – no “if” about it.

All over the news – both the talking heads behind the desks, and the talking heads they interview. Hell, one of the biggest is the Minister for Consumer Affairs and Declining Birthrate. Can’t get away from her – where have you been?

In other words, how would you explain the increasing tolerance of anti-Korean and anti-Chinese remarks by conservative politicians? Where are the vocal left-wingers?

About Koreans not being able to keep their heritage. Koreans worldwide are proud of their country as Korean- Americans, Korean- Canadians, Korean- Mexican (Latin American), Korean- Australian, Korean- European. They can be Korean- Japanese as well. Here we go again, they are exaggerting their victimhood, which is pure nonsense.

Dual citizenship not allowed by KOREA, China, Germany, Austria, Scandinavian countries, Mexico (if you are naturalizing to be a Mexican and dual citizens prohibited from political participation), Singapore. All those countries are civilized but not Japan, WOW!!!!!!!!!

The right to vote as being a resident cause paying taxes???
If I become a member of a gym because I pay my dues, does that give a right for me to dictate to the comapny what to do? Of course not. They’ll just give me my money back and tell me to take a hike. Paying taxes is liking paying the toll road. You pay to benefit from the public service.

Most, if not all countries allow Japanese to vote in local election (except New Zealand, they allow national election if permanent resident, to my knowlege) EU is for EU citizens only, UK for EU and commonwealth and Irish only. USA, Canada, and Australia, very few or even none allow the local vote. It is racism to accuse Japan when your country does not allow you to vote and you do not accuse other countries for racism when they do not allow you to vote. What a hypocrite.

I believe the special permanent residency should be abolished, as it does discriminate against other foreigners, giving Zainichi the preference they do not deserve. They can become Japanese, stay as PR status or go back home. If Japan was so bad, why do they not go home, that will resolve all their problems. They don’t because their country if Fxxxed up.
No one forces them to stay, it is out of their own free will, unlike North Korea and to an extent the South.

You can complain aobut they came, but according to Tei TAikin, the majority, if not all Koreans came voluntarily and they have the choice to stay, instead of going home. He became more rational cause of studying at UCLA and realized that Zainichis and the ‘real’ Koreans are a totally ‘different race’. I believe the fighter Akiyama said the same thing that Koreans severely discriminated against him, so he became a Japanese.

The bottom line is if you do not have Japanese citizenship, don’t expect to be treated equally if you are a foreigner (this is a rule that applies world wide). You can either take up citizenship, or go back home. There is no other alternative.

Koreans are participating in Japanese society:

Politics- Pak Chun- Geum (from 1932 through 1945), Haku Shin Kun, Arai Shoukei (deceased and from jimintou). YOu also have Ren Ho (Taiwanese) and Tsurunen Marutei (Finlandish) that also participates.

Entertainment- Wada Akiko, Ihara Tsuyoshi, etc.

Sports- Rikidousan, Kanemoto of Hanshin Tigers, Akiyama the judo guy, etc.

Business- Masay0shi Son, etc.

Others- O Seonfa, Tei Taikin, Paku Iru etc.

I’m no expert in the Japanese language, but some of those names do not sound Japanese to me. No one is forcing them to use Japanese names. If they go overseas and try to explain themselves, they will get laughed at by not only the foreign immigration, but foreigners as well.
They will be told, you got a green passport that says Korea and not the blue one that says Japan.

All outstanding issues between Japan and Korea was settled in the 1965 treaty and they should just suck it up. Korea wanted money for ‘war damages’ and Japan agreed, in exchange Korea drops all claims and nonsense. They took the money and didn’t do their end. Watch out, if they can do that behaviour in Japan, they will do it to USA and other countries.

Most of the rest of the world, including the civilized parts, does not recognize dual nationality or else severely restricts it. Countries such as:
Austria
China
Czech Republic
Denmark
Germany
Holland
India
Norway
Poland
Russia
Singapore
South Korea
Ukraine

And many, many more.

Got any sources for an official Japanese policy of fobbing off? I haven’t done much research into the issue, but nothing I have read indicated they were trying to get rid of the undesirables. Seemed to be largely farmers and the less well off, true, but a policy?

Also don’t forget that in some quarters, the “Nikkei visa” was seen as needed to make amends for an offical Japanese policy of fobbing “less than top-notch” people off to South America before and after the war, and almost leaving them to starve. There was more to the creation of that visa than a simple “Oh, they must be OK, they’ve got the same blood as us and all…”

(Random verbiage to fill up enough space that WordPress will allow a one-word reply…)

I guess I missed that it was a subjective statement indicating that dual citizenship is, in his/her opinion, wrong.

Philosophically, gambling in Las Vegas is OK, but you can still think it’s wrong. Gambling, generally, in Japan is illegal, but you can still think it’s not fundamentally wrong, just illegal.

So if you personally think that dual citizenship is wrong or nonsensical, that’s fine. The absolute statement that you are “one or none, not multiple” though is at odds with the facts. I think one could argue that being stateless (i.e. none) is wrong, too.

HamachiMan says “you are either one or the other, but cannot be both” perhaps because that is the belief or law where he is from. It is also, in theory and to a certain extent in law (as well as social attitudes) true where I come from. Within that context, it is a perfectly correct statement. What happens in Sweden (for example) is irrelevant – Swedish laws and mores hold no sway outside of Sweden.

You are correct that dual nationality exists where it is allowed to exist, however that in no way counters the fact that in most other areas it does not exist. To argue that saying “dual nationality is wrong” is a mistaken statement just because a minority of nations allow it is no more sensible than saying “gambling is OK because Las Vegas allows it” or “pot smoking is OK be cause Holland allows it”.

Clearly the options of a citizen of one, or none, or multiple are all possible, given the right host state.

Is that a bad thing? Japan is holding the door open, all most of the people in question have to do is step through. I never heard of any Irish groups complaining that the US was trying to “wipe out” the Irish community in America when my grandparents naturalized, I can hardly see how pushing Zainichi to naturalize is in anything but that group’s best interests.

Only something less than 1/4 of OECD countries recognize dual nationality without “strings”, and the (slow) momentum worldwide among governments is for further limiting dual nationality, not for increasing recognition of it. Given the fact that dual nationality is only of limited usefulness to individuals, and of absolutely zero usefulness to a country, this should not be surprising.

Japanophiles don’t like Korea (too blanket a statement of course) because Korea (this should be the anti-Japan segments there and in China really) keep making the most ridiculous claims and lies and will basically do anything to attack Japan. Yes, Korea has a very valid historical grievance against Japan, but they seem determined to make Korea under Japanese rule the Auschwitz of Asia. Nor is there any acknowledgement of the diversity of discourse in Japan, and that most of it is in fact sympathetic (what with Japanese historians being left-wing in general): they latch onto stuff like the Tsukurukai text and claim Japan is whitewashing its past – or indeed, because primary achool children are not being told about sex slavery, that Japan is hiding its past. And they respond with idiotic ideas like trying to get the name of the Sea of Japan changed to the East Sea in English.

The posts on this board are mainly hostile to a mindset, as far as I can see, rather than a people per se. The one that refuses to naturalize under the excuse that that would dilute who they are, but it’s mainly a political protest. It seems a pointless protest.

Are Japanophiles conservatives? I would say it depends on why you are a Japanophile – I know some who are extremely left wing. Perhaps those that approach Japan through manga are more left wing, and those that approach through “traditional” Japan are more right wing. Also the economics ones, perhaps.

Patently untrue given that many other states do recognize dual citizenship and thus many, many people are citizens of multiple. Not least of which, children born to mixed-citizenship parents in Japan…

“Does a Korean who naturalizes give up his heritage?”
I would say “no”, but the Zainichi who won’t naturalize obviously feel differently. Then again, as I have already said above, their “heritage” by now is far more Japanese than it is Korean.

“Is a Korean who was born and raised in Japan disenfranchised from his Korean heritage?”
I am not sure would use the expression “disenfranchised”, but let me put it this way: My mother was born in America to Irish Catholic parents who had immigrated only a few years before. Her ancestry may be Irish, but culturally she is American. As am I. I’ve got a ton of relatives in Ireland, and I understand the Irish way of looking at some things in a way someone without my background probably wouldn’t, but I am not Irish. Culturally, legally or in any other way.

Nor are the Zainichi “Korean”, despite their protestations to the contrary. Of Korean ancestry I will concede, but that is all.

An African-American, born and in America, educated in American schools, with, likely, grandparents who were likewise born and raised in America, is still entitled to possess an African heritage, are they not? Or is it imaginary?

Does a Korean who naturalizes give up his heritage? Is a Korean who was born and raised in Japan disenfranchised from his Korean heritage?

Unless by “there’s the difference for you,” you mean an entirely different argument, then yes: there it is.

I agree with you that SPR is a status that should end. IMHO the Justice Ministry should create a fast-track naturalization process whereby Koreans and Chinese with that status get recognized as former Japanese citizens, or direct descendants of same (both of which are true) and as such are automatically entitled to Japanese citizenship. All they have to do is show up at the local Justice Ministry office.

Still, there are those who won’t show up. My idea won’t appeal to some Zainichi anymore than your idea to grant children of SPRs citizenship upon birth within Japan would. I have personally met SPRs who are half Japanese, and received Japanese citizenship through their mother from birth – only to throw it away when they got older and decided they were “Korean”.

At which point the only sensible thing to do would be declare that SPR status will cease to exist as of a certain date – naturalize and take Japanese citizenship, or get normal PR status. I suppose that would be “discriminatory”, though, forcing people to crap or get off the pot…

I have to say, the most difficult thing to fathom about Japanophiles is their animosity towards Koreans–as exhibited in so many of the posts in this thread. After all, no country is as similar to Japan as is Korea.

Actually, that’s probably partly the problem. Somebody once said something–I don’t remember the quote exactly–but the gist of it is, “We hate most those who exhibit to a greater degree the faults we most dislike in ourselves.”

That still doesn’t explain all this hostility though. This may seem off the wall, but I wonder how many Japanophiles consider themselves conservatives, and if they are American, tend to vote Republican. The reason I say that is that I’ve recently been morbidly fascinated by the rise of the teabaggers and the rest of the rabid right in the U.S. There is much about these people that defies logic, but one of the strangest things about them is how they will vociferously protest against policies that would benefit them, like improved access to healthcare and an expansion of the right to unionize.

For the life of me I could not fathom their mindset. But then I came across a certain book, John Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience, that made it much easier for me to put these people in context. John Dean was of course the White House Counsel to Nixon during Watergate. In his book, he takes a look at modern conservatives like Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, etc., and the people who support, them from a psychological perspective. To make a long story very short, they are authoritarians. Japanophiles seem to me to have similar authoritarian characteristics to these conservatives.

There’s the difference for you.

Much like the African heritage that so many African-Americans subbornly insist they possess?

No it wouldn’t, it’s the lack of

“a law that would grant Japanese citizenship to the children of [special] permanent residents”

that would do that. And is.

Unless the Special Permament Residents are intrinsically unfit to vote, then why deny them that right if it is being granted to other, less special, permament residents?

Doesn’t necessarily preclude a law that automatically grants citizenship to the children of Special Permanent Residents and thus lets the whole SPR thing die a natural death…

I’m not OK with people being in favor of voting rights for the PRs we kind of like, but not for the PRs we kind of don’t like…

Japan’s “special permanent residents” should not be considered the same as permanent residents. It is a visa status that is a relic of a time after the war when the Japanese government was unwilling to grant citizenship to the Koreans and Chinese who had settled in Japan. In a sense, their “special permanent resident” status officially made them second-class citizens. It was a ridiculous system that legally separated these people from Japanese society by denying their children and their children’s children from becoming citizens of their country of birth.

Now the barriers against naturalization are pretty much gone and there aren’t any reasonable excuses why these “foreigners” who have lived in Japan for generations should not become citizens.

I am not in favor of granting voting rights to special permanent residents because I do not think that such a visa status should continue to exist. A bill that grants new privileges to special permanent residents would promote the continuation of the special permanent residency system.

It would be far better if the Japanese government passed a law that would grant Japanese citizenship to the children of permanent residents.

For example, China, Malaysia, Singapore, and China do not allow dual citizenship. You lose your citizenship if you claim another.

Hardly a ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’ concept.

Nice try, though – completely off base, but a nice try.

Indeed. One only has to read some of the comments on this post.

“Norks” being the only group that might have split allegiances influencing their voting?