No voting rights for North Korean citizens in Japan? Good.
The DPJ is going through with its plan to prepare a bill that would grant voting rights to non-citizens who have permanent residency. Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama, a firm supporter of the bill, hopes that it will be submitted to the Diet as early as next year. However, it is possible that opposition from within the DPJ may cause delays.
Today’s Dong-A-Ilbo has an English article with the headline “Japan Unlikely to Give Suffrage to Ethnic Koreans.” It claims that the bill will not grant voting rights to the “many ethnic Koreans in Japan hail from North Korea”:
The Asahi Shimbun said the ruling Democratic Party of Japan has set up the framework of a bill on suffrage for expats in Japan, including ethnic Koreans, but this will only affect nationals from countries having formal ties or the equivalent with Tokyo.
Many ethnic Koreans in Japan hail from North Korea, which has no official ties with Japan, so they will be ineligible to vote under the bill.
The ruling party has apparently excluded ethnic Koreans from North Korea to appease negative publicity over North Korea’s previous kidnappings of Japanese citizens and appeal to conservative lawmakers who oppose the bill.
The headline and the content of the article are highly misleading. Ethnic Koreans in Japan who hold North Korean citizenship do so by their own choice. If they want to be considered South Korean citizens, all they need to do is apply: they will be accepted. Their citizenship status has nothing to do with what area of Korea they “hail from.”
That having been said, I would like to repeat my position on this issue. I do not support a bill thank grants voting rights to special permanent residents. If Japanese-born Zainichi Koreans want to live in Japan with all the benefits of citizenship, they should naturalize and become Japanese citizens.
Under the current system, it is very easy for special residency permit holders to naturalize, and thousands of Koreans become Japanese citizens every year. Many who choose not to naturalize do so because they feel it is a denial of their cultural identity. The government should be encouraging special permanent residents to become Japanese citizens and fully participate in Japanese politics. Rewarding them for their refusal to naturalize is not the right answer to this problem.
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Ridiculous.
If they allow this to happen, I guess we can pretty much guarantee this to start all over the world – which is why it won’t happen. Can you imagine if the U.S. allowed its non-citizens to vote to say what happens in its country? NO WAY!
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NW,
You obviously don’t understand the situation of Koreans with permanent residence status in Japan. In most cases, they were born in Japan, and in fact their families have lived here for generations. But though they were born in Japan, they are not considered natives of Japan.
Here’s an excerpt from a 2005 New York Times article about a “Korean” woman who was denied the chance to even try for a supervisory position at a public facility because she was a “foreigner.”
“After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner.”
At the time that Ms. Chung was born, you were only considered “Japanaese” if you had a Japanese father. Your mother being Japanese didn’t count.
I really don’t agree with the opinion that these people should just shut up and naturalize. Japan still has a big problem with pretending that it is a homogenous nation. In fact, there is and always has been a lot of diversity in Japan, and at certain times in the past, that fact has been more openly acknowledged than it is now. An interesting book to read on the topic is Eiji Oguma’s A Genealogy of Japanese Self-Images.
This is more than a question of rights and descrimination. Regardless of the law, it’s also important for people to have a sense of their own identity. That’s what is being denied to Korean-Japanese in Japan today–actually, there isn’t even such an expression: “Korean-Japanese.” That’s why it looks funny when you see it written.
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I feel the same way about people saying that Zainichi Koreans should “shut up and naturalize”. But it’s a very sticky situation. I think the problem is that the Zainichi generally only consider themselves to be “Korean” if they don’t have Japanese Citizenship. As a result the Zainichi group has been shrinking for years. Especially now that any form of Japanese/Zainichi marriage results in “Japanese” children. I think it’s a terrible shame that these people are essentially choosing (or being forced to choose?) between their heritage and their rights- that is, they can either consider themselves Korean and remain permanent residents, or they can naturalize and abandon being Korean.
It’d all be nice and great if they could just think of themselves as Korean and e Japanese citizens at the same time… but it’s still really messy.
(I read a survey that said the government had been ignoring the issue because they thought it would go away eventually- because all the Zainichi would be gone)
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So why does taking the citizenship of County A mean you lose your heritage? The US manages it, even if you are a citizen. You are mixing legal and social demands together. The Korean woman you refer to above was not a Japanese citizen, and the law was clear. The law, you will note, has since been changed. Japan is not totally rigid.
Then you segue into stuff about diversity and discrimination and identity, which are not as legally defined. I’m not going to suddenly forget my heritage if I become a Japanese citizen, or an American citizen.
“That’s why it looks funny when you see it written.”
Don’t compare everything to the US, a country founded on immigration from multiple areas. You don’t see “Korean-British” a lot either….
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Thank you, Mr Overthinker, that is what I thought too, that the people they are talking about in the issue are NON-citizens.
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I wouldn’t want to naturalize and become Japanese either, considering I have to give up my original nationality. If Japan allowed dual citizenship like most of the rest of the civilized world, it’d be different though, but for now, yes please let permanent residency holders vote.
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“If Japan allowed dual citizenship like most of the rest of the civilized world,”
Most of the rest of the world, including the civilized parts, does not recognize dual nationality or else severely restricts it. Countries such as:
Austria
China
Czech Republic
Denmark
Germany
Holland
India
Norway
Poland
Russia
Singapore
South Korea
Ukraine
And many, many more.
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I think NYT is talking about the case of 鄭香均.
His brother, a professor of Tokyo Metropolitan University, has naturalized and criticized the sister’s act and suggested her to naturalize because that was all there was to it.
妹に、鄭香均がいる。香均は、日本国籍でないことを理由に東京都の管理職選考試験の受験を拒否されたとして、試験資格の確認と慰謝料の支払いを求めて都を訴え、後者につき二審で一部勝訴するも、最高裁において（最大判平成17年1月26日民集59-1-128）敗訴が確定した。なお、香均は帰化しておらず、大均は雑誌『正論』やニューズウィーク誌上で妹に苦言を呈し、日本国籍の取得を勧めた。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%84%AD%E5%A4%A7%E5%9D%87
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THANK YOU James. Finally a sensible opinion on this subject.
I can’t tell you how incredibly frustrating it is to still see people today making generic statements about how awful ethnic Koreans are treated in Japan, how they are refused any benefits, citizenship of Japanese society, etc. etc.
It is THEIR choice not to become naturalized. Simple as that, not because of some racist cabal denying them what is theirs for the taking, Japanese citizenship.
Why can’t the world understand this simple concept?
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Was your family member a Zainichi Korean?
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not that simple my friend. If it were, why wouldn’t they just all become naturalized and be done with it?
read Michael’s comment below. It’s just tip of the iceberg.
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Koreans do not have to take Japanese family names when they naturalize. Michael is incorrect.
Since we are only talking about local elections (disengenuous to leave that out), are national citizenship issues really that relevant? Surely anyone who has committed to living in a certain place should have at least some say in its governance.
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If you are talking about things like trash collection days or minor administrative details of how the local government is run, I would not particularly disagree. But…
What if a mayor or governor runs on a policy of forcing out the US base in his city/prefecture, and wins thanks to a push over the top by local Norks? Or what if, for example, Gov. Hashimoto of Osaka ran next time on a policy of allowing local banks to let wire transfers to North Korea through (OK, he’d never go along with that, granted, but…), and the Tsuruhashi vote pushes him back into office? “Local” issues and elections can easily have national impact. Direct election of officials is, and should remain, the exclusive right of citizens.
One big problem I can see with the DPJ’s idea for a bill is that it runs against what is enshrined in the Constitution, which clearly states that the right to elect and discharge officials in the inalienable right of citizens.
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“Direct election of officials is, and should remain, the exclusive right of citizens.”
And if Nork ever did seriously care about these things they could direct all their loyal followers to naturalize and vote for these things. However I think you overestimate the influence such a small percentage of the population has. There is also the question of whether a local politician has the authority to actually remove US bases.
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A good argument also for continuing to disallow dual citizenship.
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That is avoided in the proposal which would not allow Norks to naturalize since Japan and NK don’t have diplomatic ties.
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“That is avoided in the proposal which would not allow Norks to naturalize since Japan and NK don’t have diplomatic ties.”
“Norks” being the only group that might have split allegiances influencing their voting?
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Norks being the group that the Japanese government has the most concerns regarding split allegiances.
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Though I believe not all Zainichi are “Norks”. I also read that the historical split between “Norks” and “Sorks” is to some degree arbitrary. Still, I guess it’s only the Chosen Zainichi that we need to be worried about?
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Yep.
(Random verbiage to fill up enough space that Wordpress will allow a one-word reply…)
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I have no problem with extending local voting rights to permanent residents who have immigrated to Japan and committed to living here.
Japan-born special permanent residency holders are a different matter. As the name of their status suggests, they are a special case. By refusing to naturalize, they are showing their commitment to remain outsiders. I don’t think the Japanese government should encourage the continued existence of Japanese-born non-citizen communities in this country.
I have to say, though admittedly uneducated on the intricacies of the Zainichi situation, I find explicitly excluding a particular ethnic group in this way troubling and, my gut reaction, hypocritical.
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But they are not excluded from James’ argument by virtue of ethnicity, but by their actions/attitudes.
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But their actions/attitudes and status are a direct result of their ethnicity.
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This has nothing to do with ethnicity.
Koreans born in other countries can immigrate to Japan and acquire permanent residency like any other foreigner. Under search circumstances, I would have no problem with allowing that Korean permanent resident of Japan the right to vote in local elections.
Koreans with special permanent residency permits are born in Japan and have family who have lived in Japan for generations. They are not normal immigrants. They choose to exclude themselves by refusing to take Japanese citizenship.
I, personally, cannot accept that it is *nothing* to do with ethnicity. I do accept that “they are not normal immigrants”.
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“their actions/attitudes… are a direct result of their ethnicity”
Are you positing an ethnic basis for stupidity and wrongheadedness, then?
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I don’t know enough to say if their stance is stupid and wrongheaded, but if I understand their argument correctly, it is on an ethnic basis, yes.
Is stupidity and wrongheadedness sufficient in itself to deny suffrage?
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James, up to the 80’s, essentially you did have to take a Japanese family name for full rights. Job and education opportunities would otherwise be limited, so it’s not just some simple ethnic mumbo jumbo crap (which might be common for their South Korean cousins) that they haven’t naturalized; plenty are quite skeptical and/or paranoid about it.
Actually a lot of changes in the past that have improved these conditions for the zainichi have also transferred over to “gaijins”, so you’re taking for granted eased measures of naturalizing which was partly due to the stubbornness of these people, so be more respectful.
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I remember the 80s… Reagan, Cold War, big-hair bands, leg warmers….
“That was then, this is now.”
If that is the best argument that can be made about why a group shouldn’t naturalize and be done with it (“20-30 years ago you picked on my parents!”) then I am sorry, that is not an argument, that is an excuse being used by someone who is intent on not naturalizing anyway. Someone who should probably go “home”… but wait, if they did that they could be drafted, or might have their lifestyle level lowered… mustn’t inconvenience the little darlings!
Sheesh.
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What you are talking about here is social acceptance, not legal. Nothing to stop them from taking a Japanese nom-de-plume, even if they retained their Korean name. And many did (and do).
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Right, just like giving decent, God-fearing Christian names to the negroes, really; makes them seem a little bit more… human?
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Not quite. African slaves did not take Western ‘Christian’ names to be better assimilated into Western society, they were often forced on them through baptism (the more souls you save the bigger your slice of heaven, or something).
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The concept here should be that if you pay tax you should vote. IN Britain, some non-citizens (admittedly only Commonwealth and Irish citizens) are allowed to vote, and stand for election. For local, regional and european elections EU citizens are also allowed to vote.
In reply to NW: Most states allowed non-citizens to vote when the Declaration of Independence was signed – it’s not so crazy
I agree with Yarra: At the very least, non-citizens should be able to have a say at the local level.
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Right of foreigners to vote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza
While Koreans in Japan comprise only 0.05% of the population, they are a prominent part of Yakuza, despite or perhaps because Koreans suffer severe discrimination in Japanese society along with burakumin.[4][5] In the early 1990s, 18 of 90 top bosses of Inagawa-kai were ethnic Koreans. National Police Agency (Japan) suggested Koreans comprised 10% along with 70% of burakumin in Yamaguchi-gumi.[4] Some of the representatives of the designated Bōryokudan are also.[6] The Korean significance had been an untouchable taboo in Japan and one of the reasons that the Japanese version of Kaplan and Dubro’s Yakuza (1986) had not been published until 1991 with deletion of Korean-related description such as the component of Yamaguchi-gumi
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You are right,
Because of social discrimination many Koreans joined the Yakusa. Actually, south Asians (Filipinos, Indonesians, Chinese etc) are joining Yakusa for the same reason. But regarding Koreans committing crimes in Japan here is an interesting information:
“We also see that Japanese themselves are more likely to commit real crimes than anybody except the Chinese and the Brazilians (most of which are nikkei, that is Brazilians of Japanese descent). Westerners and Koreans are by far the most peaceful residents in Japan, with an fantastically low crime rate, about 12 to 18 times lower than that of the Japanese.”
Link:
http://www.jref.com/society/foreign_crime_in_japan.shtml
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The main point that your argument fails to recognize is that in order to become Japanese citizens Ethnic Koreans are required to give up their Korean family names for Japanese ones. This is the main reason why Korean’s feel becoming Japanese citizens renounces their heritage, because in fact, that is what the government is asking them to do.
Foreigners do contribute to Japanese society. Someone who works in any given country, contributes to ther community, and pays taxes, should have representation in the government. That is the meaning on Democracy.
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Source?
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Have you ever met a Japanese citizen with the last name 金 ?
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I’ve met 金田s and 金谷s but the only 金 I can recall is that preacher who was arrested a few years back.
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I have a friend who is half Korean and a Japanese citizen. His legally registered last name is 金 (Kim)
I’ve also met others with the last name 金 but don’t know if they are citizens or not.
According to my friend, many people of Korean decent simply register the original kanji for their name.
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google 金 政玉（きむ じょんおく)
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“Ethnic Koreans are required to give up their Korean family names for Japanese ones. ”
Google 鄭大均, 呉善花,崔洋一,李鍾植
鄭 呉 崔 李 are Korean family names but they are Japanese now.
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“in order to become Japanese citizens Ethnic Koreans are required to give up their Korean family names for Japanese ones.”
And as someone working his way through the naturalization process I’ll call BS. There is nothing requiring people who naturalize to take Japanese names. Names must be written in Kanji, Hiragana or Katakana (no Roman letters, in other words). Names with Kanji must not include Kanji that are not on the “approved for use as personal names” list of Kanji. But that is all. Koreans can, and do, naturalize while keeping their Korean names. Haku Shinkun, for example, who not only naturalized but is currently sitting in the Diet.
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Not true. This is another myth still being unfairly propogated.
It used to be a requirement from what I understand, but was changed at least since the late 1990’s. In fact, there is no mention at all of having to change or give up natural ethnic names on the Japanese Ministry of Justice website.
The only requirement in terms of names is that it is readable in some form of Japanese, whether it be hiragana, katakana, or kanji (like our favorite Debito for example, or Marti Tsurunen the Finnish born Japanese politician). Hardly a ‘racist’ requirement and hardly unique to Japan.
Masayoshi Son, the richest man in Japan, is in fact ethnic Korean.
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Interesting thing about Masayoshi Son was that he was actually able to trick the system into registering Son under the traditional family name list back in the day.
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That Masayoshi Son is the richest man in Japan is not proof of a lack of descrimination against Korean-Japanese. He’s an entrepreneur–nobody hired him.
The reason that his father had the money to pay for his son’s Berkley education is that he ran a chain of pachinko parlors. Ethnic Koreans are heavily over-represented in the pachinko business, as they are in the sports and entertainment worlds.
Things are much better now, but denying that there is descrimination against Koreans in Japan is just a denial of the facts.
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We are not denying there is discrimination against Koreans. We are denying that they have to take Japanese names when they naturalize.
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“We are not denying there is discrimination against Koreans.”
Indeed. One only has to read some of the comments on this post.
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Iago, you are right. Some of us are discriminating, as Zainichi Koreans are in making a clear distinction between themselves and others in what is, after all, whether they will admit it or not, their “home country”. If they wish to fully partake of all the benefits of citizenship, then it is they who need to stop discriminating, or making a distinction, between themselves and Japanese and become full-fledged citizens of this country. However as long as they insist on remaining “Korean” then it is entirely proper for Japan to make a distinction between rights granted to its citizens and rights granted to Zainichi and other foreigners.
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And I don’t have an issue with that as long as it is applied “universally”. The same would apply for any permanent resident not willing to commit to naturalization to obtain voting rights. I’m OK with people being in favor of voting rights for PRs. I’m OK with people not being in favor of voting rights for PRs. I’m not OK with people being in favor of voting rights for the PRs we kind of like, but not for the PRs we kind of don’t like…
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Japan’s “special permanent residents” should not be considered the same as permanent residents. It is a visa status that is a relic of a time after the war when the Japanese government was unwilling to grant citizenship to the Koreans and Chinese who had settled in Japan. In a sense, their “special permanent resident” status officially made them second-class citizens. It was a ridiculous system that legally separated these people from Japanese society by denying their children and their children’s children from becoming citizens of their country of birth.
Now the barriers against naturalization are pretty much gone and there aren’t any reasonable excuses why these “foreigners” who have lived in Japan for generations should not become citizens.
I am not in favor of granting voting rights to special permanent residents because I do not think that such a visa status should continue to exist. A bill that grants new privileges to special permanent residents would promote the continuation of the special permanent residency system.
It would be far better if the Japanese government passed a law that would grant Japanese citizenship to the children of permanent residents.
“A bill that grants new privileges to special permanent residents would promote the continuation of the special permanent residency system.”
No it wouldn’t, it’s the lack of
“a law that would grant Japanese citizenship to the children of [special] permanent residents”
that would do that. And is.
Unless the Special Permament Residents are intrinsically unfit to vote, then why deny them that right if it is being granted to other, less special, permament residents?
Doesn’t necessarily preclude a law that automatically grants citizenship to the children of Special Permanent Residents and thus lets the whole SPR thing die a natural death…
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Actually James, the original SPRs were Japanese citizens, and they were stripped of that citizenship largely at the behest of GHQ. There were doubtless some Japanese who were more than happy to push the Koreans out of the “Japan pool”, granted, but it was the GHQ that pushed hard for it and gave legitimacy to the Japanese government’s decision.
I agree with you that SPR is a status that should end. IMHO the Justice Ministry should create a fast-track naturalization process whereby Koreans and Chinese with that status get recognized as former Japanese citizens, or direct descendants of same (both of which are true) and as such are automatically entitled to Japanese citizenship. All they have to do is show up at the local Justice Ministry office.
Still, there are those who won’t show up. My idea won’t appeal to some Zainichi anymore than your idea to grant children of SPRs citizenship upon birth within Japan would. I have personally met SPRs who are half Japanese, and received Japanese citizenship through their mother from birth – only to throw it away when they got older and decided they were “Korean”.
At which point the only sensible thing to do would be declare that SPR status will cease to exist as of a certain date – naturalize and take Japanese citizenship, or get normal PR status. I suppose that would be “discriminatory”, though, forcing people to crap or get off the pot…
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And what I always find ironic is that if the Japanese govt had refused to return Korean citizenship to the Korean-Japanese citizens in its Empire, and especially the home islands, there would have been an even bigger outcry. Damned if you don’t, damned if you do….
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Simply untrue. That rule no longer exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masayoshi_Son
The richest man in Japan is a naturalized citizen of Korean ethnicity and has a Korean family name.
Further:
“This is the main reason why Korean’s feel becoming Japanese citizens renounces their heritage”
So exactly what “Korean heritage” does a person born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, to parents who were born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, with (increasingly likely) grandparents who were likewise born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, have? Answer: none, other than an imaginary one that they stubbornly insist they possess. If they are so proud of being “Korean”, why don’t they live in Korea? Why don’t they refuse to marry Japanese and only marry other “Koreans”? Or why don’t they, for starters, actually learn to speak Korean (increasingly the younger generation cannot)? I’ve seen Zainichi in Japan who have escaped from the North and come back and be screaming at other Zainichi on the docks of Niigata about how they are “tricking” people into going to North Korea, with both sides yelling at the other… in Japanese!
Zainichi are about as Korean as I am Irish…
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Well, some of them do go to the Korean schools in Japan….
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And I’ve known Protestants and atheists that went to Catholic-run schools and colleges. It didn’t make them Catholic.
Or for perhaps a better example, I have known Japanese who went to “Japanese schools” in the US. Even going to Japanese schools, and living at home with Japanese parents and siblings, they became “Americanized” to various degrees. Now, spread that over their entire life, and that of their parents, and grandparents, and great-grandparents….
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No, my comment about “Korean schools” was just to note that not all of them go to Japanese schools. Some go to Korean schools, and to address your next point, sure, they may not be 100% Korean, but chances are they are more “Korean” than those that go to the Japanese schools.
I really have no idea how Irish you are. I know a lot of Irish-descended people still take pride in Ireland and its heritage, so is this the level you are aiming at?
Also, not sure about high schools, but Jesuit universities in general you’d be hard-pressed to realise were Catholic. They don’t ram anything down your throat.
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@LB
A fellow Irishman!
Top o’ the mornin’ to ya!
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It sounds like some have trouble seperating heritage from nationality. Maybe it’s a misconception they picked up from the Japanese around them.
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Not sure – but I do know I don’t know many Japanese (as in “citizens of Japan, born and raised within Japan”) who think Nikkei-jin (Americans, Brazilians, etc.) are “Japanese” just like they are. Most Japanese seem to have little to no difficulty drawing a distinction between those of Japanese heritage and those of Japanese nationality.
Nice try, though – completely off base, but a nice try.
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But Nikkei are considered more Japanese than other foreigners, don’t forget.
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@Overthinker – I guess it depends who you talk to. All the Japanese I know consider Nikkei Brazilians, for example, to be “Brazilians” – and the same as any other Brazilian. Granted, there are a few fossils out there, like Ishihara, who think a former president of Peru is “Japanese”, but I don’t think very many people actually believe that, perhaps not even Ishihara himself. I think Ishihara was just envious of the fact that Fujimori could get people who disagreed with him to “disappear”.
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But remember the special visas the nikkei got to work in Japan based on the idea that, well, they were semi-Japanese.
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@Overthinker – yes, but also remember that was a good number of years ago that they came up with that visa idea. Perhaps, at the time, a certain percentage of Japanese thought Nikkei would be “like real Japanese”, but reality showed them quite some time ago that such was not the case.
Also don’t forget that in some quarters, the “Nikkei visa” was seen as needed to make amends for an offical Japanese policy of fobbing “less than top-notch” people off to South America before and after the war, and almost leaving them to starve. There was more to the creation of that visa than a simple “Oh, they must be OK, they’ve got the same blood as us and all…”
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Not that many years ago, surely. Not if we are looking at the post-war treatment of ethnic minorities in Japan.
Got any sources for an official Japanese policy of fobbing off? I haven’t done much research into the issue, but nothing I have read indicated they were trying to get rid of the undesirables. Seemed to be largely farmers and the less well off, true, but a policy?
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@Overthinker – no single source, but various articles I have read and documentaries (mostly Japanese ones) have pointed out that there was official government sanction for the effort, including subsidies for travel (but nothing after “delivery”). Farmers and the poor were targeted as “a way to give people a chance”, but also targeted and nudged along apparently were a large number of Communists, social agitators and buraku, especially in the pre-war migrations but to a lesser extent in the post-war ones. The migrations were, as mentioned, largely government run and therefore official policy. Shuffling the “undesirables” onto the boat was a “silent policy” within that official policy.
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Okay, that is a bit more realistic. Official govt sanction for emigration, definitely (including to places like Manchuria). Japan was getting very concerned about its expanding population. Targeted at the poor, definitely. And I can believe some nudges towards the commies and trades unionists etc. Your previous statement was just a little too broad and sweeping. Thus I find it less plausible that the Nikkei visa was in recompense for these left-wingers the govt tried to resettle, since they were a minority.
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“So exactly what “Korean heritage” does a person born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, to parents who were born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, with (increasingly likely) grandparents who were likewise born and raised in Japan while being educated in Japanese schools, have? Answer: none, other than an imaginary one that they stubbornly insist they possess.”
Much like the African heritage that so many African-Americans subbornly insist they possess?
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I have never heard of or met an African-American who insisted they were African, or who claimed citizenship in any African country and refused to take American citizenship. African-Americans are – brace for it – Americans. In terms of citizenship and in terms of culture. Most of them proudly so. They are not “Africans”, do not claim to be “Africans”, and no native of any African country would consider black Americans to be anything other than American.
There’s the difference for you.
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I believe we were talking of heritage, not citizenship in this case.
An African-American, born and in America, educated in American schools, with, likely, grandparents who were likewise born and raised in America, is still entitled to possess an African heritage, are they not? Or is it imaginary?
Does a Korean who naturalizes give up his heritage? Is a Korean who was born and raised in Japan disenfranchised from his Korean heritage?
Unless by “there’s the difference for you,” you mean an entirely different argument, then yes: there it is.
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“An African-American, born and in America, educated in American schools, with, likely, grandparents who were likewise born and raised in America, is still entitled to possess an African heritage, are they not? Or is it imaginary?”
I would lean toward “imaginary”, as most African-Americans have no idea of where their ancestors came from, aside from “Africa” or, more specifically, “West Africa”. That is a lot of real estate, with lots of different peoples and cultures. African-Americans have created an “African-American culture”, but it is something created out of American culture far more than it is something created out of African culture (if we were even to accept an “African” culture, which is something that does not exist).
“Does a Korean who naturalizes give up his heritage?”
I would say “no”, but the Zainichi who won’t naturalize obviously feel differently. Then again, as I have already said above, their “heritage” by now is far more Japanese than it is Korean.
“Is a Korean who was born and raised in Japan disenfranchised from his Korean heritage?”
I am not sure would use the expression “disenfranchised”, but let me put it this way: My mother was born in America to Irish Catholic parents who had immigrated only a few years before. Her ancestry may be Irish, but culturally she is American. As am I. I’ve got a ton of relatives in Ireland, and I understand the Irish way of looking at some things in a way someone without my background probably wouldn’t, but I am not Irish. Culturally, legally or in any other way.
Nor are the Zainichi “Korean”, despite their protestations to the contrary. Of Korean ancestry I will concede, but that is all.
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Hmm. Well, maybe tenuous would be a better word than imaginary; the heritage is there however dilute. The African heritage of the forbears became the African-American heritage of the latter generations, but that sub-culture would not be what it is now but for what came before. And the Irish-Americans can still have their St. Patrick’s Day parade…
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Well that was quick. Once again proof that any individual can make blanket statements and generalizations about Japan and various aspects of its society, culture, and government without absolutely an ounce of proof.
I don’t deny that ethnic Koreans experience can experience racism in Japanese society, but no society is free from it. But it’s sad that anyone can make false statements about Japan and think they can get away from it.
Unfortunately people will continue to make these false blanket statements on other websites about Japan, and no one will challenge it, and take it as face value.
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Becoming a citizen of another country is denying their cultural identity, but living in that country permanently is not? Maybe someone should explain to them that citizenship is not culture.
Honestly, I doubt this could happen in the US… Their visas would have expired and they would have been sent back if they didn’t bother to apply for citizenship. And it certainly hasn’t stopped any immigrants from maintaining their cultural heritage here in the US.
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I’ve been living in Japan for many years as a permanent resident. I have no intention of becoming a citizen of Japan. But I am obligated to pay taxes. I feel that I should have the right to vote and be represented. If I chose to return to my home country I would naturally lose my permanent residency status and any right to vote that had been granted by prime minister Hatoyama’s proposal. I think it’s a great idea and if they actually do it they’ll definitely have my vote in the future.
I personally knos a Japanese doctor that is actually a Korean citizen. He was born in Japan and graduated from Gifu University. He holds two doctorates. He’s tried ever so many times to become a naturalized citizen of Japan and has been refused every time. This idea that if Korean permanent residents can easily obtain Japanese citizenship is not correct. In some cases they possibly can but in many cases they cannot. Maybe prime minister Hatoyama will also address this terrible limbo state that thousands of Japanese-Koreans live in. Giving permanent residents the right of suffrage is an excellent start.
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“I have no intention of becoming a citizen of Japan. But I am obligated to pay taxes. I feel that I should have the right to vote and be represented.”
I was going to write out a longer reply, but I think it can be better encapsulated in one word:
Tough.
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In 2008, Out of 15,440 applicants, 13,218 was granted to naturalize.
http://www.moj.go.jp/TOUKEI/t_minj03.html
That means that 85% of the applicants successfully naturalized.
「不許可通知書」には、その理由が必ず記載されているので、それをよく理解して、再申請するか否かを検討します。
http://immigration.dreamblog.jp/14/35/
Ask him why he was rejected.
By the way,tax and the right to vote are historically connected, but citizens who don’t pay tax have the right to vote and can’t be deprived of the right. Paying how much and not paying tax are not necessarily linked with the right to vote. But citizenship does.
Living in a local city is an good reason to have a say about what the city should do. But it is unreasonable to give the tourists and illegal immigrants in the city the right to vote.
So legal permanent residents may be good candidates for the right-holders and whenever you get more people to participate, you add legitimacy to that process,” but some ask, then, why they hesitate to naturalize, why they have made a decision not to become Japanese citizens.
The debate continues.
There are pros and cons. But there is no knock-down argument on either side, i.m.o..
I understand voting rights have always been expanded rather than retracted. But even in E.U. generally, non-E.U. citizens are not granted the right to vote in the local election. I feel more consensus is needed in Japan.
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I hope everyone knows that all the Germans are going to vote in French elections to make the country part of the Fourth Reich, ja?
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“In 2008, Out of 15,440 applicants, 13,218 was granted to naturalize.
http://www.moj.go.jp/TOUKEI/t_minj03.html
That means that 85% of the applicants successfully naturalized.”
Actually, 15,440 people applied, 13,487 cases were decided in 2008 (the remaining 1,953 cases were doubtless either carried over into 2009 or the applicants rescinded their application before a decision was reached).
Out of that 13,487 decided cases, 13,218 cases, or 98%, were approved. If you compare previous years, you will find that 2% or less of the total cases that came to decision in any given year were rejected.
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Every year, about 10,000 Zainichi Koreans naturalize in Japan.
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Actually it was only about 7,400 last year, the number has been dropping every year since 2003. That was also the year non-Zainichi naturalizations cleared 1000 persons. In a few years more non-Zainichi will probably be naturalizing every year than Zainichi as those Zainichi who can naturalize will either have done so or will adamantly refuse to naturalize no matter what. The Zainichi will doubtless eventually go the way of the Dodo – and be missed about as much.
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Which seems to be the Japanese government’s strategy.
I have to say, the most difficult thing to fathom about Japanophiles is their animosity towards Koreans–as exhibited in so many of the posts in this thread. After all, no country is as similar to Japan as is Korea.
Actually, that’s probably partly the problem. Somebody once said something–I don’t remember the quote exactly–but the gist of it is, “We hate most those who exhibit to a greater degree the faults we most dislike in ourselves.”
That still doesn’t explain all this hostility though. This may seem off the wall, but I wonder how many Japanophiles consider themselves conservatives, and if they are American, tend to vote Republican. The reason I say that is that I’ve recently been morbidly fascinated by the rise of the teabaggers and the rest of the rabid right in the U.S. There is much about these people that defies logic, but one of the strangest things about them is how they will vociferously protest against policies that would benefit them, like improved access to healthcare and an expansion of the right to unionize.
For the life of me I could not fathom their mindset. But then I came across a certain book, John Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience, that made it much easier for me to put these people in context. John Dean was of course the White House Counsel to Nixon during Watergate. In his book, he takes a look at modern conservatives like Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, etc., and the people who support, them from a psychological perspective. To make a long story very short, they are authoritarians. Japanophiles seem to me to have similar authoritarian characteristics to these conservatives.
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I’m not sure I’d class myself as a Japanophile, since I am perfectly willing to admit where this country (Japan) is fucked up, so I don’t have blinkers on or anything. Nevertheless I shall give it a stab.
Japanophiles don’t like Korea (too blanket a statement of course) because Korea (this should be the anti-Japan segments there and in China really) keep making the most ridiculous claims and lies and will basically do anything to attack Japan. Yes, Korea has a very valid historical grievance against Japan, but they seem determined to make Korea under Japanese rule the Auschwitz of Asia. Nor is there any acknowledgement of the diversity of discourse in Japan, and that most of it is in fact sympathetic (what with Japanese historians being left-wing in general): they latch onto stuff like the Tsukurukai text and claim Japan is whitewashing its past – or indeed, because primary achool children are not being told about sex slavery, that Japan is hiding its past. And they respond with idiotic ideas like trying to get the name of the Sea of Japan changed to the East Sea in English.
The posts on this board are mainly hostile to a mindset, as far as I can see, rather than a people per se. The one that refuses to naturalize under the excuse that that would dilute who they are, but it’s mainly a political protest. It seems a pointless protest.
Are Japanophiles conservatives? I would say it depends on why you are a Japanophile – I know some who are extremely left wing. Perhaps those that approach Japan through manga are more left wing, and those that approach through “traditional” Japan are more right wing. Also the economics ones, perhaps.
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“Which seems to be the Japanese government’s strategy.”
Is that a bad thing? Japan is holding the door open, all most of the people in question have to do is step through. I never heard of any Irish groups complaining that the US was trying to “wipe out” the Irish community in America when my grandparents naturalized, I can hardly see how pushing Zainichi to naturalize is in anything but that group’s best interests.
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Overthinker: In response to your point that historians in Japan are left-wing in general, if that is true, then they surely don’t have much influence in contemporary Japanese society; this kind of historical understanding seems confined to academia, and doesn’t quite translate to the average person. In fact, I would disagree that the majority of Japanese are “sympathetic” to Chinese and Korean grievances. Rather, it seems that the perceptions of Japan’s neighbors in the media generally trend towards criticism, and these attitudes are in turn emulated by ordinary people.
In other words, how would you explain the increasing tolerance of anti-Korean and anti-Chinese remarks by conservative politicians? Where are the vocal left-wingers?
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“Where are the vocal left-wingers?”
All over the news – both the talking heads behind the desks, and the talking heads they interview. Hell, one of the biggest is the Minister for Consumer Affairs and Declining Birthrate. Can’t get away from her – where have you been?
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“I would disagree that the majority of Japanese are “sympathetic” to Chinese and Korean grievances.”
Based on what? You seriously don’t think the majority of Japanese think that the Japanese invasion of China was a bad thing?
“the increasing tolerance of anti-Korean and anti-Chinese remarks by conservative politicians”
Here’s a good debate tactic – toss in “increasing” when you mean you are seeing more. Is this tolerance in fact increasing? Is it proportional to any rise in anti-Japan statements? What exactly constitutes an “anti” China/Korea statement?
“the perceptions of Japan’s neighbors in the media generally trend towards criticism”
Criticism of Koreans littering beaches, for example, is not denial of Korean suffering in the war. Nor should the two ever be conflated. Also, “generally” is a rather vague word as well. A lot of the stuff Japan Probe picks up on is critical, as the blog is designed to get comments and debate.
And re the historians, “if that is true” – no “if” about it.
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I don’t see the big deal about dual citizenship which I find ridiculous. You are either a citizen of one or none, not multiple.
For example, China, Malaysia, Singapore, and China do not allow dual citizenship. You lose your citizenship if you claim another.
Hardly a ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’ concept.
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You are either a citizen of one or none, not multiple.
Patently untrue given that many other states do recognize dual citizenship and thus many, many people are citizens of multiple. Not least of which, children born to mixed-citizenship parents in Japan…
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Following your logic, your “patently untrue” is patently untrue as many more nations do not recognize dual citizenship than do recognize it. Many people do have dual or multiple citizenship. However many, many, many more do not. Even among OECD countries, which seems to be the benchmark some folks like to use for some reason. I did the research, and slightly less than half the OECD countries recognize dual citizenship in some form – that “in some form” ranging from the US which compels those who naturalize there to “renounce all previous allegiances” (which to me would be about the same as Japan’s demanding people who can renounce do so and show that they have) while simultaneously accepting that the US government cannot revoke another country’s citizenship, thereby leaving the door open for dual nationals, to countries like Holland which allows Dutch nationals to keep Dutch citizenship if they naturalize elsewhere but not vice versa.
Only something less than 1/4 of OECD countries recognize dual nationality without “strings”, and the (slow) momentum worldwide among governments is for further limiting dual nationality, not for increasing recognition of it. Given the fact that dual nationality is only of limited usefulness to individuals, and of absolutely zero usefulness to a country, this should not be surprising.
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No, your logic is flawed. The statement “your are either A or B” is untrue if it is clear some people are both “A and B”. The fact that the “A and B” state can only exist in a limited number of cases doesn’t make the statement that it can exist untrue, does it?
Clearly the options of a citizen of one, or none, or multiple are all possible, given the right host state.
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No, Iago, because we are talking about a political, social and/or legal belief.
HamachiMan says “you are either one or the other, but cannot be both” perhaps because that is the belief or law where he is from. It is also, in theory and to a certain extent in law (as well as social attitudes) true where I come from. Within that context, it is a perfectly correct statement. What happens in Sweden (for example) is irrelevant – Swedish laws and mores hold no sway outside of Sweden.
You are correct that dual nationality exists where it is allowed to exist, however that in no way counters the fact that in most other areas it does not exist. To argue that saying “dual nationality is wrong” is a mistaken statement just because a minority of nations allow it is no more sensible than saying “gambling is OK because Las Vegas allows it” or “pot smoking is OK be cause Holland allows it”.
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To argue that saying “dual nationality is wrong” is a mistaken statement just because a minority of nations allow it is no more sensible than saying “gambling is OK because Las Vegas allows it” or “pot smoking is OK be cause Holland allows it”.
I guess I missed that it was a subjective statement indicating that dual citizenship is, in his/her opinion, wrong.
Philosophically, gambling in Las Vegas is OK, but you can still think it’s wrong. Gambling, generally, in Japan is illegal, but you can still think it’s not fundamentally wrong, just illegal.
So if you personally think that dual citizenship is wrong or nonsensical, that’s fine. The absolute statement that you are “one or none, not multiple” though is at odds with the facts. I think one could argue that being stateless (i.e. none) is wrong, too.
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What a crock!!! No foreigner should have the right to vote. if you want to participate in the political process, you should become a citizen. You chose to not become a citizen, so you should accept the inconvenience of being a non- citizen. Even dual citizens should not be allowed to participate, as when the going gets tough, they can ‘jump ship’.
About Koreans not being able to keep their heritage. Koreans worldwide are proud of their country as Korean- Americans, Korean- Canadians, Korean- Mexican (Latin American), Korean- Australian, Korean- European. They can be Korean- Japanese as well. Here we go again, they are exaggerting their victimhood, which is pure nonsense.
Dual citizenship not allowed by KOREA, China, Germany, Austria, Scandinavian countries, Mexico (if you are naturalizing to be a Mexican and dual citizens prohibited from political participation), Singapore. All those countries are civilized but not Japan, WOW!!!!!!!!!
The right to vote as being a resident cause paying taxes???
If I become a member of a gym because I pay my dues, does that give a right for me to dictate to the comapny what to do? Of course not. They’ll just give me my money back and tell me to take a hike. Paying taxes is liking paying the toll road. You pay to benefit from the public service.
Most, if not all countries allow Japanese to vote in local election (except New Zealand, they allow national election if permanent resident, to my knowlege) EU is for EU citizens only, UK for EU and commonwealth and Irish only. USA, Canada, and Australia, very few or even none allow the local vote. It is racism to accuse Japan when your country does not allow you to vote and you do not accuse other countries for racism when they do not allow you to vote. What a hypocrite.
I believe the special permanent residency should be abolished, as it does discriminate against other foreigners, giving Zainichi the preference they do not deserve. They can become Japanese, stay as PR status or go back home. If Japan was so bad, why do they not go home, that will resolve all their problems. They don’t because their country if Fxxxed up.
No one forces them to stay, it is out of their own free will, unlike North Korea and to an extent the South.
You can complain aobut they came, but according to Tei TAikin, the majority, if not all Koreans came voluntarily and they have the choice to stay, instead of going home. He became more rational cause of studying at UCLA and realized that Zainichis and the ‘real’ Koreans are a totally ‘different race’. I believe the fighter Akiyama said the same thing that Koreans severely discriminated against him, so he became a Japanese.
The bottom line is if you do not have Japanese citizenship, don’t expect to be treated equally if you are a foreigner (this is a rule that applies world wide). You can either take up citizenship, or go back home. There is no other alternative.
Koreans are participating in Japanese society:
Politics- Pak Chun- Geum (from 1932 through 1945), Haku Shin Kun, Arai Shoukei (deceased and from jimintou). YOu also have Ren Ho (Taiwanese) and Tsurunen Marutei (Finlandish) that also participates.
Entertainment- Wada Akiko, Ihara Tsuyoshi, etc.
Sports- Rikidousan, Kanemoto of Hanshin Tigers, Akiyama the judo guy, etc.
Business- Masay0shi Son, etc.
Others- O Seonfa, Tei Taikin, Paku Iru etc.
I’m no expert in the Japanese language, but some of those names do not sound Japanese to me. No one is forcing them to use Japanese names. If they go overseas and try to explain themselves, they will get laughed at by not only the foreign immigration, but foreigners as well.
They will be told, you got a green passport that says Korea and not the blue one that says Japan.
All outstanding issues between Japan and Korea was settled in the 1965 treaty and they should just suck it up. Korea wanted money for ‘war damages’ and Japan agreed, in exchange Korea drops all claims and nonsense. They took the money and didn’t do their end. Watch out, if they can do that behaviour in Japan, they will do it to USA and other countries.
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Hinomaru,
Thank you! Well said.
People just want to HATE Japan, don’t they? They’re craaaaazy!
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overstinker
“I have no intention of becoming a citizen of Japan. But I am obligated to pay taxes. I feel that I should have the right to vote and be represented.”
“I was going to write out a longer reply, but I think it can be better encapsulated in one word:
Tough.”
It’s not Tough at all. It’s easy. I’m not a whiner. I’m completely happy with my situation. But that’s only because so far there hasn’t been legislation forcing sterilization of all gaijins in Japan. I know that I could probably go through the long arduous process of becoming a Japanese Citizen so that I could vote. But it seems troublesome to me and I always chose the path of least resistance. I’m so happy that Hatoyama was elected and he is seriously considering contributing to my easy path. If I do end up with complete voting rights with nothing other than my permanent resident visa he and his party will definitely have my vote unless they want to sterilize me.
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Since you have demonstrated your maturity so clearly, I shall feel free to descend to your level of personal invective and name-calling (seriously, how old are you? 12?). If you are so happy with your situation, shithead, then why say “I feel that I should have the right to vote and be represented”?? You clearly feel that tax-paying non-citizens should have the right to vote.
And are you also so thick that you cannot read “reply to this comment” and keep each topic in its correct place?
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overthinker
Sorry for the typo and the wrong placement. I can be a S.H. so you might be right about that.
I do feel that tax paying non-citizen permanent residents should have the right to vote in any country. Not just Japan. I’m glad that prime minister Hatoyama has a reasonable and intelligent attitude in this regard as well.
If any particular country that I happen to reside in wants to exclude me from the electoral process then they should also exclude me from the taxation process as well.
I do vote in U.S. presidential elections and I’ll also file my U.S. tax return every year and pay taxes in my home country. Americans am not allowed to renounce my U.S. citizenship and even if I were to throw away my passport and try and claim I am not a U.S. citizen (I’m a true American patriot so this will never happen) I’d still be liable to file a U.S. tax return every year. I wonder if famous people like Debito are filing his. It is possible at some point an time people such as him could be extradited back to the U.S. and brought up on federal tax evasion charges if they have undeclared income. The U.S. I.R.S. occasionally likes to just pick people out of the blue and make them squeal to set an example for the rest of us. So it’s just not as simple as becoming a Japanese citizen for me so that I have the right to electoral representation in the country that I’m legally permitted to reside in. I’m American with all of the obligations and responsibilities that this comes with no matter where I reside or what I chose. And that’s just the way it’s going to be until I die. God Bless America!
That doesn’t mean that I really care all that much one way or another until something extreme happens that might result in giving up my la la land surreal existence of complacency.
Bottom line is that I’m extremely happy that I may be given the right to vote in the near future in Japan. I’m also enthused that all other tax paying permanent resident holders will likewise be given the right to vote. It’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it. It’s not Tough. It’s Easy and It’s Righteous.
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Actually americans can give up thier citizenship. They are just not allowed to get it back. Only in rare and exotic circumstances you can. Debito does not pay taxes because hes not American anymore. Japan does not allow dual nationality thus he had to give up his US citizenship to do so. He feels he is fighting a way of thinking that excludes him and many others from society. For example my father is Jewish. My mother is not. Therefore I am not jewish as far as Israel is concerned. Ergo I am Jewish enough to be hated but not Jewish enough to be Jewish. His situation is similar in that he has Japanese nationality. A Japanese passport. He pays taxes in Japan though many believe he is still not Japanese. Making it a racial issue. So your logic regarding debito is erronious. How can he evade taxes to a country he is not a citizen of or reside in.
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I don’t think nationality really matters when it comes to considering someone Japanese. For instance, I used to think 王貞治、和田アキ子 were Japanese and in a way I still think practically they are ,but they don’t have Japanese citizenship.
People judge someone as one of his/her nationals, based on how s/he looks, speaks, acts.
In Europe and America, consciously or unconsciously Asians and Africans are likely to be considered foreigners. In Japan, white and black people are likely to be considered foreigners.
(mostly because of history and the rate of the population, methinks.)
In this respect, 王貞治、和田アキ子 are easy to be looked upon as Japanese whether they like it or not.Besides, they speak Japanese just like other Japanese. They are far more talented than Japanese but they know how to behave, how to deal with things just like Japanese.
ベッキー and other people of mixed race are interesting cases.
Though there are still some people who take them as non-Japanese, more and more people have no hesitation to think of them as Japanese. In the meantime, some people of mixed race feel isolated ;they think, act like Japanese but just because they look different, they are treated different. It really takes time for society to change the perception but I hope that they will overcome identity crisis and realize that there are many people who want to help them.
On the other hand, if someone does not look like most of Japanese and he does not read, write Japanese, he does not know how to deal like Japanese, he excludes Japanese people, he encourage foreigners to sell demagogue about Japan, there is little chance he will be considered Japanese even if he gets Japanese citizenship.
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Robert
A little over 20 years ago there was a major shift in U.S. state department policy. Americans can no longer renounce their citizenship or evade citizenship’s legal obligations and responsibilities. Debito or any other American can become Japanese. Pledge allegiance to the emperor and burn the American flag but they are still technically American. Getting back your U.S. citizenship is not even the question because you can’t lose it. The only way that a U.S. citizen could ever lose their U.S. citizenship would be to join the North Korean Army or some other hostile nation or terrorist group to the U.S.
This U.S. citizenship used to be quite different more than 30 years ago during and before the cold war but the state department made a drastic shift in policy in this regards. I don’t think that many of the underlings or flunkies in the State department are even aware of this policy clearly. But if you talk with any consulate general around the world that is in the know they’ll give you the correct and current policy. Which is once a U.S. citizen always a U.S. citizen until death do us part. Whether you like it or not. The same goes for all of thousands of Japanese babies that are born in the U.S. And then the parents register their birth. They have become American and when they become 18 they are legally required to register for the selective service if they are male. Although this isn’t being enforced all that much their may come a day when the U.S. starts calling these young men into service. And if they don’t register they may extradite a few back to the U.S. and prosecute them to set an example. Japanese and other foreigners that think they are so smart in having their children born in the U.S. so that they become U.S. citizens upon birth have absolutely no idea what the obligations of being a U.S. citizen entail. Debito may have renounced his U.S. citizenship but he’s still a U.S. citizen and if he’s making good money in the future as a talent he’d better file a U.S. tax return and pay his taxes or it’s possible he might be made an example of by the I.R.S. Yes, they can do that and sometimes they do.
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Gaijin – The US Department of State does not agree. They specifically state that renouncing your citizenship is possible, and tell you how to do it. See:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
They do note, however, that you may still incur tax and military responsibilities. I believe that tax requirements last for ten year following renunciation of citizenship. However I doubt Debito needs to worry – I don’t think he can even afford a computer printer….
I am surprised the US still retains selective service. Glad I’m not American. Nor do I agree with the tax=voting rights idea (although perhaps for local elections), although since that ethos is one of the founding catch-cries of the US, with No Taxation Without Representation, I am not surprised to see an American in support of it. But then I don’t even care enough about the political process to vote where I am eligible, so would probably only vote in Japan for the novelty of it and then get bored.
However, if living and paying taxes in a foreign country means you should have the right to vote, why does not living and not paying taxes in your own country mean you should be able to vote just by being a citizen? On the one hand, the argument is that those most affected by the government should have a say in it, and on the other the criterion is simply citizenship.
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@Gaijin – you are wrong, American citizens can renounce as Overthinker pointed out, and Debito renounced far more recently that 20 years ago. There are nations out there that refuse to allow their citizens to renounce citizenship, but the US is not one of them. Thousands of people renounce their US citizenship every year, and are recorded in The Big List of Not Nice People in the Congressional Register for that year. The list is online if you care to look for it.
US citizens living overseas are required to file a Federal income tax return, yes, but if you make less than about 80,000 USD a year you have no tax obligation. If you make more than that amount but are paying income taxes to the country you live in, you get credit for the taxes on any amount over the 80,000 USD you earned. This is all spelled out in the 1040 book you get every year.
So, now that we’ve established conclusively you don’t know whereof you speak…
@Overthinker – the “10 year tax obligation for renouncing US citizenship” is only for those who are determined to have renounced their citizenship for tax reasons. It was part of a law aimed at the “Yacht people”, wealthy Americans who lived offshore and were thus able to deduct that 80K I mentioned above. If the US government determines that your primary reason for renouncing citizenship is to get out of paying US taxes you are held responsible for the taxes on 100% of your income (no 80K deduction) for the next 10 years and permanently banned from ever re-entering the US.
There have been questions raised about how the State Department, which handles renunciations, would be able to determine one’s tax liability as the IRS is specifically prohibited by Federal law from sharing specific individual’s income and tax information with other Federal or State agencies. There is apparently an allowance made for criminal investigations that specifically involve tax fraud, but if one has been paying their taxes properly that allowance should not be applicable. In theory, but we are talking about the government…
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overthinker
I understand the state department has a link with a detailed explanation of how to renounce your citizenship but in fact U.S. citizens can fill out this form and renounce their citizenship but it’s still impossible to actually renounce your citizenship. It’s is easy to renounce your permanent residency status but you still have taxation and military obligations for 10 years. I’ve heard this directly from several consulate generals of Japan in the past 20 years. Basically the U.S. assumes that anyone that is going through this detailed process of renouncing their citizenship is doing so under duress and so they’ve set up internal fail safe procedures to protect against this.
I believe all permanent residents of any country should have the right to vote. It’s not as if we just got of a plane as a tourist and were handed permanent resident visas. It took 5 years of living in Japan without any trouble before I was even eligible to apply. It then took another year and a half after the application before it was granted. All totaled over 6 years. I think that the right to vote is a reasonable right for all permanent residents. I don’t think that non permanent residents or illegal aliens should have voting rights. In any case there’s not much I can do about it other than complain at the present time because I can’t vote to try and change it.
I’ll also continue to be an American citizen and continue to vote in every presidential election as well. Aren’t you at least a little relieved that I helped keep McCain and Palin away from the White House? No matter what people say for or against president Obama imagine if right now we had Sarah Palin running around Washington D.C. with her hunting buddies. Voting is very important even if at times it is boring. I’d definitely vote to keep the LDP from coming back to power in Japan as well. The LDP never even considered giving permanent residents the right to vote. I think prime minister Hatoyma is The Man.
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Well, we can’t really go much further. On the one hand we have the State Dept saying it is possible, on the other we have you saying it isn’t based on personal coversations. Not being an American citizen I have never had the need to talk to a consul-general or ambassador, but I will try and remember to raise the issue. After all, it’s not impossible they would tell Americans that just to try and prevent them from thinking about trying…. We really need someone who has gone through the process. I certainly won’t ever renounce US citizenship, for the very good reason I don’t have it.
If it had not been for Sarah Palin I would not have minded if McCain took the White House. He seemed a decent chap. Obama seems good too, I think. Aside from Palin, who gave me the shits, I wouldn’t have minded WHO got in the White House. Though Hilary Clinton was a bit scary too.
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I’ll agree with you that McCain seemed like a decent chap. Palin aside, I mean way aside, I just worried about the effect of all those years of his being a P.O.W. in Vietnam. There are numerous veterans in the U.S. including my beloved uncle paul but I wouldn’t want him to be the president.
It used to be as you think, and I can tell you are an overthinker, that you could lose your American citizenship but losing your citizenship and renouncing it are totally different subjects. Yes for political reasons they let you renounce it but no they do not allow you to lose it. I’ve spoken with various U.S. consulate generals and even a few others high up in the state department who have all informed that the new policy is once a citizen always a citizen. The process of renouncing it formally or informally is irrelevant.
It’s basically a safeguard policy that came about to prevent foreigners or even native citizens from using and abusing the privileges of U.S. citizenship. The beginning time era of this existing policy is somewhere 1980-1990. Of course the formal process of renouncing once citizenship has to be there for political expedience to address the international intricacies of dual citizenship. This the logic of the current policy. Let’s just have a policy that prevents U.S. citizens from losing their U.S. citizenship. The perfect example being this latest case of the abduction involving this Savoie fellow who came to retrieve his children and was arrested by the Japanese police. He renounced his U.S. citizenship to become Japanese and yet now his living in the U.S. as a full fledged U.S. citizen. Case in Point.
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“I just worried about the effect of all those years of his being a P.O.W. in Vietnam”
I think if they had driven him nuts it would have been obvious well before the election stage….
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Gaijin – you have proof Savoie renounced his US citizenship when he naturalized, or are you just pulling that out of your ass too?
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@Overthinker – I finally figured out what Gaijin is confused about. Under old interpretations of 8 USC §1481 the mere act of naturalizing elsewhere was taken as intent to give up one’s US citizenship, and the State Department would automatically cancel that individual’s citizenship. Supreme Court decisions starting with Afroyim vs. Rusk held that the US Government could not just cancel people’s US citizenship, as that would run counter to the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. And in 1980, the Supreme Court ruled that the US Government could not revoke one’s citizenship without a preponderance of evidence that the individual committed one of the acts listed in the above USC with the specific intention of renouncing their US citizenship. As a result, US immigration laws were changed in 1986 to specify that potentially expatriating acts would result in the loss of US citizenship only if they were performed with the intent of relinquishing US nationality.
In other words, the law was changed so that the US government cannot unilaterally decide “Person X naturalized in another country and so is no longer a US citizen”. Now the person in question must demonstrate that they intend to give up US citizenship. I think this is where Gaijin is confused.
There is nothing in US law prohibiting an individual from renouncing. But there are clear US laws regarding what must be done when someone renounces – their name must be recorded in the Congressional Register for that year, and the State Department must issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality to the individual.
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You should have. McCain was very famous for his rage with his poilitics aside. I use to like him but he shoved all credibility he had by asking Palin to be his VP. Saying hes a maverick when Palin was a logical decision to try and win. Too bad americans are not as stupid as Republicans thought we were. Though I like to think of McCain as one of the last moderate Republicans. Now thier insane christian conservatives who do not believe in global warming because “The world will end when god says it will end”. About his time as a POW. You know the North Vietnamese gave him an apartment and a few prostitutes right? To make anti-american propaganda. The other POWs that were there either did not know he was there. Or hated him because he was in suits laughing and smiling with the guards.
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