More bullying from the Shibuya Center-Gai Patrol

Back in February 2008, I blogged about the Shibuya Center-Gai Patrol, a group of volunteer security guards who patrol the main shopping area near Shibuya station in Tokyo. The SCGP lacks the power to arrest people, so its members rely on intimidation to enforce minor ordinances and stop “rude” behavior.

A couple weeks ago, the SCGP were featured on Japanese TV again. Here’s a clip of them shouting at a couple foreigners:

Unfortunately, I was only able to find this part of the clip. The first few seconds of the confrontation are not included.

However, according to a post in a 2channel thread about the SCGP, the incident took place because they didn’t want the foreigners to sit on a guard rail:

Patrolman: Don’t sit on the guard rail.
Black guy: Why?
Patrolman: You aren’t allowed to sit here.
Black guy: Why? I’m not doing anything!

The black guy raises his voice and the patrol leader gets excited.

Patrol leader: You Bastard! Do you want to mess with a Japanese samurai??!!!

Another commenter shares his thoughts on what happened:

Cuz, I mean, they’re telling people sitting on the guardrails to stand up, but caused trouble with that group of black guys.

Legally, you probably aren’t allowed to sit on guardrails, but do you really have to go that far? I mean they’re not nazis or anything…From a foreigner’s perspective I think they’d think it’s really ridiculous.

I’m all for cleaner and safer streets, but I consider a gang of vigilantes who intimidate and bully pedestrians to be far more unsightly than a few young people loitering or sitting on guard rails.

[The Japanese news article translations in this post were provided by myGengo’s simple human translation system.]

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136 comments - What do you think? Posted by James - October 15, 2009 at 8:16 am

Categories: Foreigners in Japan Tags: Shibuya Center-Gai Patrol

http://www.chirimotsumoreba.net Jordan

Needlessly aggravating people just causes tensions which otherwise wouldn’t be there.

Stupid. Just plain stupid.
Tully

As politically-incorrect as it may sound, I wish they’d do the same in Roppongi. Those Nigerian touts are really annoying. Same goes for the ones posing as “Jamaicans” in the middle of Takeshita Dori in Harajuku. I witnessed two such Nigerians physically intimidate and threaten a hapless American tourist when he snapped a shot with them in the background. They only backed off when a Japanese bystander indicated she was calling the cops.
http://a-cat-in-ny.blogspot.com/ blue

It was called “Jikeidan(自警団 means Vigilante)” when the last great Kanto earth quake happened in 1923. And they killed lots of Koreans and Chinese people.
I really hope the same thing will not happen when the next big quake hits Tokyo. But I cannot deny the possibilty. I have realized many dark sides of Japanese when this internet things started.
- J.
  
  I thought only Koreans were targeted.
- JapanPro
  
  Sometimes foreigners know about Japan much more than Japanese. Especially about darker side.
  - ponta
    
    And sometimes foreigners are mistaken about the belief that they knew more than Japanese, especially about darker side.
- ponta
  
  It didn’t happen in the Kobe earthquake in 1995, In what sense can you not deny the possibility?
- japanobserver
  
  It is the year of 2009 now. I seriously doubt that JP people as they may be xenophobic now will plummet to the level of 1923. I think you can rest easy about it.
  - kjin
    
    Race relations aren’t a constant upwards slope of progress. I mean, many naive Americans probably thought we had put certain civil injustices behind us until THIS happened: http://www.propublica.org/feature/post-katrina-white-vigilantes-shot-african-americans-with-impunity
    
    Never underestimate the power of a crisis to make seemingly civilized people do senseless things. Rationality, tolerance, and compassion are concerted efforts of every generation, not things that simply improve with time.
    - Ajapa
      
      The situation can be very different than 1923.
      
      We can have well-organized rescue teams and medical staffs as preparation to disasters. Technology is highly advanced and many people now understand the necessity of mental care. Quick international aid is also expected. Even if people’s mind haven’t changed since 1923, we now have more chance to operate well enough to keep people’s mental conditions more calm and relaxed. As ponta mentioned above, no serious problems were reported in the Kobe earthquake in 1995. Was there any mob attacked a Chinatown in Kobe?
    - kjin
      
      No, on that much we agree. Theoretically at least, an industrialized nation should be able to handle disasters far more effectively than in the past, and it appears the Kobe quake was handled quite well. But, Katrina of course shows what happens when the aid network is botched and a true crisis results.
      
      I’m not suggesting disasters would inevitably result in people turning against one another. But at the same time I think it’s perhaps naive to assume that we would expect different results from another Katrina situation, even in a modern Japanese city.
    - Ajapa
      
      I’m not suggesting disasters would inevitably result in people turning against one another. But at the same time I think it’s perhaps naive to assume that we would expect different results from another Katrina situation, even in a modern Japanese city.
      
      I’m sure that you are not suggesting pessimistic result is more plausible. However, in Japan, a crime rate is already low, and a riot and a violent protest activity seem to rarely happen. No guns and rifles available easily. So, most possible case of organized violence might come along with hysteria, frustration, and other mental instabilities, caused by long term suffering and uneasiness due to very clumsy aid activity. I don’t know the background of Katrina’s case, thus I can’t compare with it though. I think Japan is still in healthy state enough to prevent serious organized crimes at a disaster. Maybe, people steal Cup Noodles and bottles of water from supermarkets and convenience stores.
- SWater
  
  According to the Asahi Daily News (and the wireless communication of Japanese police), there were supposedly many riots and arson by Korean mobs after the great Kanto earthquake. You should investigate these if you are really interested in the dark side of the Japanese society.
  
  http://www.asahicom.com/anotoki/
  - The Overthinker
    
    Damn right. And I hear that at the same time black people in the US weren’t given equal rights. All these dark sides….
    - longus dickus
      
      you point is realy lame dude.
- http://a-cat-in-ny.blogspot.com/ blue
  
  I thought my post here was deleted as it disappeared right after I posted.
  
  I heard Koreans were targeted.
  However, Jikeidan killed other Asians too if they spoke Japanese with accent.
  
  Koreans started riots?
  Yeah, Chinese started riots too, that’s why the Rape of Nankin took place.
  And American POWs started riots, that’s why they were forced to do the Death March.
  And many Asians started riots all over Asian, that’s why so many of them had to be killed.
  You are absolutely right.
  
  Tokyo is a much bigger city than Kobe. If you happen to be in the center of Tokyo when the next big quake hits. It can take forever to get out of Tokyo and you can be easily isolated without much informations. That can make a big difference.
  
  The dark sides of Japanese internet world were:
  Certainly 2Channel is one of them. I was too naive to believe things were said there.
  But I eventually realized that the outside of 2Channle had even deeper and darker issues.
  One reason of its populary is that 2channel is the almost only one place that Japanese can speak their minds. Most of other places Japanese have to behave in a very polite way just like the reflection of the real society, outside of computers.
  However, they always watch over each other and some of them love to become an anonymous GOD and hit someone down who sticks out(Deru Kugi ha Utareru) with the words like “Who do you think you are?(Nanisama)””You are just annoying!(Uzai)” and “You are too stupid to know how to be polite(Reigi Shirazu)”
  I think things like this can happen anywhere but certainly Japanese do more than some other people.
  In the midst of the huge caos by the next great Kanto earthquake, I think some Japanese might love to be anonymous Gods and hit anyone who they do not like or they think too sticking out.
  I really hope that will not happen.
  - ponta
    
    “Tokyo is a much bigger city than Kobe. If you happen to be in the center of Tokyo when the next big quake hits. It can take forever to get out of Tokyo and you can be easily isolated without much informations. That can make a big difference”
    
    Aside from the question whether the comparison with Kobe is inappropriate , how does it make a big difference in reality;though,
    your assertion is true in a sense that anything is possible unless it is not logically impossible.
    
    If you think racial tension is high in Tokyo, I am afraid you’ve been reading 2 channel too much.
    - kjin
      
      I don’t know about the situation for mainland Asians living in Japan, but outside of the areas near the bases in Okinawa and the virulently anti-Russian sentiment I’ve heard about in locations of Hokkaido, I think Tokyo has the highest potential for racial tension in the country, simply because that’s a hotspot for foreigners who have no societal connections (like a government job or host family), and thus no concrete avenue for learning social etiquette. Clash of cultures, clash of interests, recipe for disaster, IMO.
      
      On the Japanese end, television and advertising is partially implicit in this divide, as far as I’m concerned, particularly variety TV. They’re much happier dumbing down and sensationalizing foreigners, and seem to be afraid to show them as someone you can identify with, or at the very least understand. It’s shockingly irresponsible for a place like Tokyo where interaction with actual foreigners is pretty common.
      
      I used to cringe whenever my students told me that their favorite TV genre was “owarai.” No, I’m not naive enough to think everyone who watches it agrees with all of its assumptions, but I fail to see the humor when a common theme seems to be the deprecation of all of humanity. If anyone here has some kind of heartening insight into this culture, I’d like to hear it. Seriously. It depresses me.
  - SWater
    
    How old are you?
  - Ajapa
    
    blue,
    
    Please stop irrelevant ranting.
    
    One reason of its populary is that 2channel is the almost only one place that Japanese can speak their minds. Most of other places Japanese have to behave in a very polite way just like the reflection of the real society, outside of computers.
    
    You don’t need to reproduce cheap analysis of silly self-proclaimed intellects and would-be sociologists or Japanologists who know nearly nothing about the internet. It may merely prove that you have no friends or someone that you can speak your mind.
    
    In the midst of the huge caos by the next great Kanto earthquake, I think some Japanese might love to be anonymous Gods and hit anyone who they do not like or they think too sticking out.
    I really hope that will not happen.
    
    Don’t worry, blue. It is supposed that some Japanese, who behave like an anonymous God on the internet, usually confine themselves to their rooms all day long. Hence, it is highly plausible that they silently wait for rescue teams under a heap of rubble in the midst of the huge chaos induced by the forthcoming Great Kanto earthquake.
Daz

that sucks..’this is Samurai Japan??’ WTF???
And that ISN’T racist in tone? Since when?
This is why you didn’t get the Olympics..
- LB
  
  Yes, because the IOC met and said “You know, we just can’t possibly give the Olympics to a city with obnoxious middle-aged men shouting at people. So we’ll give it to a city with a long history of desperate poverty, huge slums, areas of rampant violent crime and police-supported death squads.”
  
  Sheesh – get over yourself already, please.
- HamachiMan
  
  Still smarting over the Serena incident? Since when does a group of wanna be rent a cops drunk with power (hardly exclusive to Japanese people) represent an entire country and people?
  
  To repeat myself, if even ONE Japanese person engages in actions either physical, mental, or verbal, that may or may not have ‘racist’ connotations, then it is indicative of ‘typical’ Japanese racism, xenophobism, and carte blanche to indict the entire country and people.
  
  However, if any other race/ethnicity/group does the same, then it’s considered a few bad apples, not representative of an entire country/race, not everyone is bad, etc. etc.
  
  Double standards always and forever when it comes to Japan and its people.
  - F.Ha
    
    I agree with you on the double standard thing, but I would also say its b/c Japan does have a history of dealing with foreigners rather unfairly.
    - Daz
      
      I think guys that harass people like these ‘security’ did on the video, that leads to the these people who have done nothing wrong being taken to the koban, is a big problem.Whether it is racist or not,these guys have instigated an incident that may have led to these guys being arrested.
      [You wanna have a go? You wanna have a go with a Japanese Samurai?] I find this imflammatory, and the same guy actually physically grabs the black guy..this is enough to be considered assault in some countries.
      This is getting reported more and more in Tokyo…tourists being harassed by police, enforced urine tests..yes it sets an unfriendly image to the detriment of Japan,which is generally a lot more easy-going.
    - HamachiMan
      
      I wouldn’t exactly say Japan treats its foreigners anymore unfriendly than a lot of other nations. Perhaps in some things but this broad stereotype that Japan treats all its foreigners like dirt and unfair I don’t buy.
  - http://1000thingsaboutjapan.blogspot.com/ Orchid64
    
    Actually, this isn’t confined to Japan. It applies all of the time to any discussion of behavior in the United States by nearly any other country in the world. How many Japanese people believe all Americans are gun-toting yahoos because one Japanese man was shot in someone’s back yard on Halloween? I still get shocked looks when I tell Japanese people that not every American has a gun.
    - http://blog.havill.com/ Eido Inoue
      
      It wasn’t a Japanese man. The 59kg Japanese kid (16 years old) that was shot: Yoshihiro Hattori. And it didn’t happen in the backyard. It was the front yard.
      
      But nitpicking the details aside, I agree with your comment.
  - RMilner
    
    Of course I don’t believe all Japanese are shouty racists, and of course there are shouty racists in other countries too.
    
    But, doesn’t Japan claim for itself a unique and highly cohesive ethnic and cultural identity which justifies the sometimes apparently discriminatory differences in behaviour and law between Japan and western nations?
    
    To play devil’s advocate, if Japan is uniquely homogeneous in terms of culture, perhaps this is extends to racism and public harassment too.
    
    Perhaps Japanese are more likely to engage in such behaviour. Perhaps there are more ‘bad apples’ in Japan.
    - Ajapa
      
      RMilner,
      
      It’s not “Japan” who claim for itself a unique and cohesive ethnic and cultural identity. The fact is that ther are many (or some) self-proclaimed intellects, academics, commentators, writers, journalists, etc., who often make such a silly claim, and there are many naive people who might believe in, or be affected by, such claims.
      
      The reality might be more complicated than you think. Japan has long been described or viewed as an entirely “alien” nation from the West. Also, it can be said that some of foreign (more specifically, western) media and people also, more or less, had tried to depict Japanese as uniform and homogeneous people, in this case, like robots mass-produced in a factory or ants having no genetic diversity. The devil’s advocate might suggest that they are considered as an attempt to dehumanize Japanese, the classic of racism.
      
      I am tired of this kind of “uniformity and homogeneity” myth reproduced again and again. To me, it is merely a malformed creature given birth by obscure and vague racism in the old era.
    - The Overthinker
      
      While this view has some merit, let’s not shift the blame entirely overseas. There was a great deal of effort by the Japanese government at various stage of the past 150 years or so to create a uniform and malleable populace.
    - Ajapa
      
      The Overthinker,
      
      I did not intend to shift the blame entirely overseas, but I just wanted to present another viewpoint. I actually do not know at all where the theory of “uniform and homogeneous” Japanese came from, but in some respect, it could be possible that it was a reactionary attitude against others when enough diversity had not existed in the international society.
    - The Overthinker
      
      “I did not intend to shift the blame entirely overseas”
      
      Fair enough – I don’t disagree.
  - Katie
    
    Totally agree, HamachiMan. Even as foreigners in Japan rail against being treated en masse as ‘gaijin’, they turn around and accuse the whole country as being 100% prejudiced against foreigners and write blogs telling the world about how racist Japan is. Hypocrisy much?
    
    This is the grown up world – you do not shout or give aggro to anyone, even if they give you some grief over sitting on a railing. Cool, calm reason is the only way to deal with life’s many difficulties.
Yamato

“This is Samurai Japan” – I think he’s just admitting his sexual preferences…the “I am a Samurai” types usually like to forget about the way that samurai liked to “train” young boys, and enjoyed a bit of “man love”.
good gods

I would have just got off the guard rails. It is the same in America where maybe a security guard will be like , “Mam, no standing in front of the store….” However I gotta admit that the Japanese are infamous for the regulation of things that would fall beneath our radar but as they say, while in rome….
- The Overthinker
  
  Does a security guard have that right? If you are not on store property, it’s not his business.
F.Ha

the whole samurai bit is actually indicative of racism in my opinion.

also japanese people sit are guard rails all the time, so if you target a group of foreigners, thats just asking for trouble.
- LB
  
  Of course the unanswered question is: were they targeting foreigners or are they yelling at everyone to stop sitting on the rails, and in this case we’re only seeing the videotaped bit where the people being yelled at are foreigners? If they are yelling at everyone equally, and being equally obnoxious to any young Japanese who says “What for, grampa?”, then that would put things in a very different light, wouldn’t it?
  
  As for the “We are Samurai Japan!”, my first inclination would have been to retort “Really? So, what was it like playing in the WBC alongside Ichiro?”
  - doinkies
    
    The previous video about them that was posted last year shows that they yell at Japanese people, too…
    - LB
      
      Indeed it does. Good – so they are equal opportunity assholes, then. I doubt this will satisfy folks like Daz, but so be it.
    - The Overthinker
      
      They’re still arseholes. And seriously, what the fuck was up with the “samurai” bullshit? These people are drunk on their own power. I’m almost tempted to go to CG and sit on guard rails–except I live on the other side of the country.
    - Iago
      
      I suppose it would be childish, should one see these guys on the street in future, to shout out “Samurai Nippon!!!”…
k

lol, since when is it illegal to sit on a guard rail in Japan? They would have to arrest at least 50 people sitting infront of Hep 5 in Umeda. I like the Japanese guy who is acting tough, ” you gonna try something? with a Japanese samurai” lol, then they take out their samurai cell phones and call the cops. Wow, shit happens though man, when a REAL cop asks me for my idea in Japan, I just give it to him. This old guy is on a power trip, if this were before the Meiji restoration, I don’t think the level of his job would be even close to a samurai, maybe more close to a samurai nutsack washer.
k

whoops I ment I.D not idea
Mr. USA

It should have been as simple as:

“Don’t sit on the rail”
“Ok”
- tokyojesusfist
  
  Why? They weren’t police officers or even security guards, they had no authority to issue such orders.
  - fg
    
    You don’t need that kind of authority to go patrol the neighborhood in this country, OK?
    
    There is a long standing residential and shop-owner community in Shibuya, like they have everywhere in Japan, and people are entrusted to take-up certain roles in a community.
    
    Not everything in the world is done by issuing orders and written out in law.
    - The Overthinker
      
      But they still can only ask.
  - Mr. USA
    
    “Why? They weren’t police officers or even security guards, they had no authority to issue such orders.”
    
    They are security guards. As long as it’s private property, they have the right to issue such orders.
    - The Overthinker
      
      Are they actually security guards? They’re a volunteer organization. What legal authority do they have? Suppose I formed a volunteer organization and told people off for anything I didn’t like? Is that appropriate? And CG itself is not private property, and guard rails are state property, not shopowner’s property.
    - fg
      
      You over rationalize to quickly.
      It’s a community “thing,” don’t you get it?
      The residents and shop owners in the area felt things were starting to get disorderly and out of hand.
      To take precautions, they decide to hire security to patrol the area.
      What is wrong with that?
      There is definitely something wrong with people who don’t cooperate to keep Shibuya in order, not the security guards.
      
      You must put in your logic, the parameter of “time.” In this day and age, it’s easy to travel from point A to B. But not many people consider how much time it takes to build a community, a set of morals, etiquette, and culture. It takes time for morals to grow, like trees that grow. Do you want people to push you around by law enforcement in every aspect of your life? I don’t.
    - Mr. USA
      
      “Are they actually security guards?”
      
      Yes.
    - The Overthinker
      
      So they have the legal authority of employed security guards?
      
      “they decide to hire security to patrol the area.
      There is definitely something wrong with people who don’t cooperate to keep Shibuya in order, not the security guards.”
      
      Well, first off, are these actually a hired security force or a volunteer group? And you really think sitting on a guard rail is public disorder? And that an appropriate response to that is to get in someone’s face and shout about taking on a samurai?
      
      “Do you want people to push you around by law enforcement in every aspect of your life?”
      
      Which is exactly what happens here when these people don’t get their way.
    - Kevin
      
      The bigger question is whether or not this is public or private property. If the entire shopping area is like a shopping mall with a specific management designation, and these are real security guards, they could probably have you move because of loitering.
      
      However! If this is public property, they can ask you to move, but there is absolutely no reason to comply. It’s probably important to keep your calm, but if they start making aggressive actions toward you, just call the cops.
    - fg
      
      Here is a link to the “Oppressors”
      
      http://www.bouhan.metro.tokyo.jp/volunteer/search.cgi?orgcd=13003
      
      They seem to be just people from Jichikai and Shouten-gai. Not sure if there’s money involved in hiring them or if it’s strictly volunteer, but that doesn’t really matter.
      
      //And you really think sitting on a guard rail is public disorder? And that an appropriate response to that is to get in someone’s face and shout about taking on a samurai? //
      
      You can’t see who provoked who by this clip, but you can see the black guy pushing the ‘samurai’ guy with force. And I don’t think ‘samurai’ started shouting at him because he was sitting on a guard rail.
      
      //Which is exactly what happens here when these people don’t get their way//
      
      That’s why you should move when you’re asked by the patrol or Jikeidan who are legitimate in the sense that they are a civilian patrol group formed by the requeset of Jichikai and Shotengai.
      What’s the big deal?
    - http://relaxedfocus.blogspot.com Rob
      
      “…you can see the black guy pushing the ’samurai’ guy with force.”
      
      After the Japanese guy put his hands on him. I can’t speak to laws in Japan exactly, but in many places around the world that constitutes assault. I’d have done likewise. If I don’t know you and you accost me physically *at the very least* I’m going to make you disengage physically.
    - fg
      
      Yes I see, the samurai put his hand on the black guy, but it appears to me that his intent was to calm the guy down because he was getting excited. It didn’t look like he was going to hit him, or strangle him.
      
      I didn’t know that merely touching another guy constitutes an assault in many other countries.
      
      It’s pretty common in this part of the world to try to communicate on a equal human level by doing a litte touchy touchy action. Especially the old guys try to show that intimacy. It must be a cultural difference.
      
      If I was sitting on a guard rail in a foreign country and some local guy says to get up because your getting in the way, I’d just say thanks for letting me know.
    - The Overthinker
      
      “who are legitimate in the sense that they are a civilian patrol group formed by the requeset of Jichikai and Shotengai.”
      
      Which means nothing at all. The shopowners only have the authority to control their own private property.
      
      It’s very instructive to compare these amateurs with the restrained attitude of the cop in last month’s clip with the woman who claimed she didn’t speak English and then said she’d kill herself. That’s a trained professional at work. Anyone in security who thinks that getting in someone’s face is going to calm the situation down shouldn’t be allowed out.
      
      “It didn’t look like he was going to hit him”
      
      Perhaps not, but Rob is correct in that that action can be considered assault and is at the very least can be seen as a threatening action. Who knows what will happen?
      
      “If I was sitting on a guard rail in a foreign country”
      Yeah, if it was a serious faux pas and no natives did it, you would have a point. Aside from that the nationality of this guy is not the issue. The heavy-handed in-your-face confrontational attitude of this self-appointed vigilante group is the issue. Now maybe if these blacks were seriously annoying, like hassling people or so on, I would agree that they need to be stopped (using better methods than shouting about samurai of course), but for just sitting?
      
      To sum up:
      1. I challenge their authority to do what they are doing in a public place. At the very least I would want written proof if they tried to move me on.
      2. I consider their methods counter-productive and in fact could be seen as trying to incite violence.
      3. They are over-zealous.
    - Kevin
      
      This isn’t a cultural difference. If he thought putting his hands on someone that he made angry would calm him down, then he’s not trained properly. Police might be able to get away with this, but they also have the authority to arrest someone who begins to get aggressive.
      
      It’s pretty common in this part of the world to try to communicate on a equal human level by doing a little touchy touchy action. Especially the old guys try to show that intimacy. It must be a cultural difference.
      
      And you may be right about touching in communication between equals, but does, “You Bastard! Do you want to mess with a Japanese samurai??!!!” sound like the proper way to start a conversation between equals? This group tries to achieve results through intimidation. They are not interested in respectful interaction between citizens.
    - fg
      
      The only part that I agree with you is that the samurai guy is a bit over-zealous.
      
      Other than that I think they have legitimate reasons for doing what they do.
      
      //Which means nothing at all. The shopowners only have the authority to control their own private property. //
      
      That’s a harsh statement. By authority you mean “legally”? That’s not how it works here. People compromise and talk things out before you go to court.
      
      //That’s a trained professional at work. Anyone in security who thinks that getting in someone’s face is going to calm the situation down shouldn’t be allowed out. //
      
      And you have the authority to dictate that to the residents and shop-owners in Shibuya? They are doing the best they can within budget to tidy up their neighborhood, and they want minimum intrusion from officials. That’s how folks are. You don’t like folks? Folks can be nasty sometimes, but generally I trust folks more than officers. They are more enjoyable too, once you become friends with them.
    - The Overthinker
      
      “That’s not how it works here. People compromise and talk things out before you go to court.”
      
      Please don’t trot out the “how it works here.” I know how it works here. Those wanna-be cops don’t show a lot of inclination to compromise.
      
      “And you have the authority to dictate that to the residents and shop-owners in Shibuya?”
      
      Yes I do, by the power invested in me by me.
      
      “They are doing the best they can within budget to tidy up their neighborhood”
      
      Ah, so tidying up the neighbourhood involves removing blacks sitting on guardrails.
      
      “Folks can be nasty sometimes, but generally I trust folks more than officers.”
      
      “Folks” without a legal authority have not got the training or the recourse systems of the official authorities. They give themselves authority without responsibility.
    - fg
      
      ちょっと英語つらくなってきたんで、日本語でもいいですか？
      
      何故、そんなに彼らに敵対心をもやしているんですか？
      
      自警団の態度は確かにプロではないですよ、自警団ですから、忙しい中、商店街や自治会のおっさんや兄ちゃんが見回って注意しているんですよ。それがそんなけしからんことなんですか？営業の方々の生活の大変さも理解していますか？自分たちの育った街をよくしたいのは当たり前じゃないですか？
      
      なんでもかんでも、法的にとらえることが問題の解決になりませんよ。
      
      あの黒人の方がなぜあんなに興奮していたのか分かりませんが、このような動画の一部だけを見て、すぐに日本は人種差別主義だとか、排外主義だとか結論を出すかたが多くて残念です。
      
      地元の方々と協力して生活を営むということを理解していただきたい。
    - The Overthinker
      
      「日本は人種差別主義だとか、排外主義だとか」
      
      タイム、タイム。私は一言でも「人種差別だ！」とか、「排外主義だ」と言っておりません。上記でも述べたように、「the nationality of this guy is not the issue」。相手が誰であろうと、こうした過剰な行為に関して、反対する野が当然でしょう。そう思う日本人も少なくはありません。
      
      私が反感を思っておりことは以下の通りです。
      
      １、特に害の無い行為（ガードレールに腰をかけるとか）をやたらに注意すること。地方の治安とどう関連しますか？明らかな妨害的行為はともかく、こうして調子に乗って些細なことまで注意する始末になります。「営業の方々の生活の大変さ」が危ういように見えません。
      
      ２、怒鳴りつけて相手を興奮状態を高まることは、事態をエスカレートさせて、最悪の場合は暴力になりうるでしょう。専門家の警官はもっと冷静的に、エスカレートしないように訓練されているのに、素人がそうではありません。悪く言えば、わざと興奮させて警察を呼ぶ手口とでもいえるでしょう。
      
      ３、権限の問題。注意するだけなら、人の自由ですが、威力をかけて、無理やりさせるのがやりすぎです。本当の違法行為なら、公の場だから、公の権限をもつ警察に通報してもいいが、市民ではなく、限られて団体（商店街など）のために公の場の行為を制限させることは、根本的な問題があります。
      
      つまり、権限の無い団体が些細の事に関して怒鳴りつけて注意することに対して敵対心を持ちます。
    - anti
      
      日本は人種差別がありすぎて、人種差別じゃないのに、そう言った誤解を招く。ガードレールに座っちゃ行けないの？考え方、意味分からなくない？そんなに時間に余裕があれば、家かえってトイレ掃除しろ。
    - fg
      
      何もあなたが、日本人のことを人種差別主義だといっているといってません。
      
      このような番組のワンセグメントだけを見てantiさんのような人や他にもこのスレッドで人種差別と結びつける人が実際たくさんいるでしょ？
      
      この番組全体をみれば、他の日本人にも同様に注意をしているとわかるので人種差別ではないと分かります。しかし、いきなり黒人の方ともめているセクションの一部しかアップしてないじゃないですか。わざと誤解を生むようなことをしているんですかjamesさんは。
      
      自警団の見回りなんて、昔からあたりまえにあるものです。自警団がなんなのか、日本人も外国人もみんなが知っていれば、黒人の方だって過剰反応を起こさないでしょ。だから私は商店街の自警団は日本では普通のことだと説明しているんです。
      
      ちょっと、ガードレールからどくぐらい大したこどじゃないでしょ。なんでそんな簡単なことでいちいち権利を主張するんですか？ガードレールでたむろしていたんでしょ。素直に従えはいいじゃないですか。みんなで協力して良い街にすれば自分たちも気持がいいでしょ。
      
      警察に頼らずにみんな自分たちでできることは自分たちでやるんですよ。
    - The Overthinker
      
      「素直に従えはいいじゃないですか。みんなで協力して良い街にすれば」
      
      まず、ガードレールに腰をかけることと「良い街」の関係は明らかではありません。それとも「良い街」とは、自警団の言いなりに従ってこそ「良い街」でしょうか。
      
      「素直に従えはいいじゃないですか」とは言いやすいことだが、こういう自警団にどういわれても素顔に服従すべしということですか。妥当な要求なら妥当な反応は当たり前ですが、なぜ、一々こうしたことまで自警団は注意せねばならないのか、それがどうも理解できません。
- fg
  
  Seriously,
  why can’t it be just,
  
  “Soko suwaranaide kudasai, meiwaku ni naru node.”
  
  “Sumimasen”
  
  Only rebellious adolescents and people who don’t understand Japanese etiquette cause all the commotion.
  
  So, if you are in Japan, I know it can be difficult sometimes, but please try to follow Japanese etiquette to the best of your ability.
  
  As for the “this is samurai Japan” line, that was the cheesiest thing I’ve ever heard. He should of have said “Don’t mess with Peasant Japan!”
K9

Feb 2008?
なんかもう、必死って感じ・・・WWW
ponta

Not that I support their activism, but it is koekake, you can say to me, for instance, “don’t throw away the garbage here.” even if you are not a police officer, and if I push you away, you can call the police.
If you try to assault me with a knife, saying that amerikajin wo nametara akanzo, this time you’ll be arrested.
http://blog.livedoor.jp/tonchamon/archives/51795567.html
- AIB
  
  You’ll also notice that (right or wrong) the guy pushed the wanna be cop’s hand off him – only a retaliation.
Aaron

The thing that worries me is at the very end, when the rent-a-cop says “they thought it was racist discrimination” and the narrator replies “these patrolmen…encounter many similar misunderstandings.” I don’t live in Tokyo, so I don’t see this kind of problem so much, but if a lot of people are perceiving their actions as racist, maybe that’s because they are? Again, I don’t know the specifics here, but it’s not enough to say “I’m not being racist,”–racism is measured by actions having differential effects on people of different races. If these volunteers routinely harass those who appear to be foreign, and not those who appear to be Japanese, that’s racism. If they go around telling everyone to get off the guard rails, then it’s not racism. But when I hear that the misunderstanding is very common, it makes me wonder who’s really misunderstanding–the narrator/volunteer, or the person being yelled at?
arerae

this is the benefits of peace and order, it is Japan’s greatest merit.

why do these gaijin（kokujin） gather together?
we japanese people are anxious about those gaijin（kokujin） gathering together
because the image of black people is no good in japan.
gaijin mustn’t disturb the order　in our country.

what is clear is that,
in japan, there are hardly any racist
like the westerner.
ordinary gaijins will have warm welcomes from the Japanese people.
(but they need to be able to speak　our language freely, read and write.
and need understand our sense.
“When in Rome, do as the Romans do”

If you don’t like japan, please just leave.
thx
- ponta
  
  あんた、日本人のふりしているだけでしょ。
  最近、そういうの流行っているの？
  Comment by arerae
  2009-10-15 12:38:35
  
  Comment by Nippon
  2009-10-15 12:34:25
  I am burakumin (okinawan), the worst I ever heard was “die you dirty animal” from an old guy because I have tan skin, so he knew I was burakumin. It’s ok, the younger generation is nicer.
  Reply to this comment
  Comment by ponta
  2009-10-15 12:39:57
  Burakumin is not Okinawan. Okinawan is not Burakumin.
  No Japanese would be mistaken about it
  
  http://www.japanprobe.com/2006/10/27/discrimination-list-leaked-and-a-story-from-my-personal-experiences/#comment-382051
  
  それと、日本人のふりをするならもう少し日本人英語を勉強したら？おれの英語がなんか役にたつかもよ。
  - arerae
    
    日本人ですが。
    Nipponとかいう奴は俺じゃない。
    
    不良外人を注意した自警団が悪者にされるのは
    ちょっとね。
    これが日本のやり方なんだから、嫌なら帰ればって話。
    外人に媚びる必要ないんだよ。
    - The Overthinker
      
      「これが日本のやり方なんだから」
      
      ご冗談を。ある特定の日本人の（過剰の）やり方にすぎない。２ｃｈでもこうした行動を反対する日本人も多いが、彼らも日本を去るべき？また、ガードレールに座るだけで「不良」というのか？
    - steve
      
      pontaさんは、あんたがNIPPONさん「というやつ」であると言っていないよ。
      
      what is clear is that,
      in japan, there are hardly any racist
      like the westerner.
      
      これって。。。どいう意味なの？もしかして、英語を間違ってるか、本当にそう思ってるの？勉強してください。
      
      http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/部落問題
    - ponta
      
      areraeさん
      
      いや、失礼しました。私の勘違いでした。
      まず、
      
      why do these gaijin（kokujin） gather together
      
      日本人でも海外にいくと日本人同士たむろしてます。
      
      because the image of black people is no good in japan.
      
      これはどうでしょう。人によるんじゃないでしょうか？黒人ファンというのも多い。
      
      gaijin mustn’t disturb the order　in our country.
      
      おっしゃることはわかります。日本人でも、外国人でも、あまり、風紀や秩序をみだしてもらいたくないものですね。日本人のなかにもおかしなのはいる。
      
      what is clear is that,
      in japan, there are hardly any racist　like the westerner
      
      日本でも人種差別主義者います。ただ、たしかに欧米型の人種差別とは異なる面も多い。
      
      ordinary gaijins will have warm welcomes from the Japanese people
      
      これは賛成です。
      
      they need to be able to speak　our language freely, read and write.
      
      これもそう望みたいですね。
      
      不良外人を注意した自警団が悪者にされるのは
      ちょっとね。
      
      お気持ちはわかりますが・・・この自警団の活動についてはよく知らないし、本件についても詳細がわからないのでなんともいえないですが、
      このビデオでうつる場面だけでも、自警団の側に過剰な面はあった、っその点は認めてよい、と思います。自警団の方も認めておられる。
      
      外人に媚びる必要ないんだよ。
      
      これはおっしゃる通りだと、思います。
    - The Overthinker
      
      they need to be able to speak　our language freely, read and write.
      
      だが、観光名所のセンター街は外国人観光客も少なくは無い…
    - Ajapa
      
      what is clear is that,
      in japan, there are hardly any racist　like the westerner
      
      Maybe, he just think “racist” as a mob with racially motivated hatred? I think I can safely say that racially motivated physical assault is relatively fewer (or near to zero) in Japan.
  - Nippon
    
    My mistake, I am ryukyuan, we are considered to be Burakumin.
    - http://www.japanprobe.com James
      
      My mistake, I am ryukyuan, we are considered to be Burakumin.
      
      You are a ryukyuan living in Japan, and you think that ryukuan = burakumin?
    - The Overthinker
      
      There may be some discrimination against them, but they are not burakumin. No more than Ainu are.
    - Nippon
      
      Yes, I am ryukyuan….many people don’t know what ryukyuan is, so I just tell them that I am okinawan. There have been times where I do not want to tell people that I am ryukyuan because in the past, I have been called names, mostly from older people, but younger generation is nice to me.
    - Weirdo
      
      Nipponさん、俺も半分沖縄人なんだけど・・・俺って部落民だったんかｗアキサミヨーｗ
      ってか、沖縄方言分かる？うちなーぐち。
    - ponta
      
      “ryukyuan”
      
      琉球ね、そういう言葉もあったなああ。
      それに「りゅうきゅうあん」、ていう言い方、なかなか使えるもんじゃありませんぜ、あんさん。
    - The Overthinker
      
      Yeah, it’s a legit word.
    - Mark in Yayoi
      
      Pontaさん、Ryukyuanという英単語は全然おかしくありません。明治時代の学者はLuchuanの言い方も使っていましたが最近の論文などに見られなくなり、Ryukyuanが普通になってきた。琉球列島と琉球の言語の一部は鹿児島県ですから、「Okinawan」とちょっと違う。どんどんRyukyuanを使いましょう！
      
      （英語で発音すると、「球」の母音が短くなる傾向があって「りゅうきゅあん」に近いと思うけど。）
      
      Weirdoさん、ンダウンナンとぅ？ヤイマームニー、ドゥナンムヌイバガラニ？アヌヤ　ドゥナンムヌイ　バガルンドー。（ちょっとだけです。八重山や与那国の言葉はちょっと分かるが首里はあまり。）
      
      Nippon, I don’t think anyone considers the Ryukyuans to be the same as Burakumin. Ryukyuans have certainly been treated badly by the mainlanders (particularly after the Satsuma invasion until recently), but I’ve never seen anyone lump them in with the burakumin.
    - ponta
      
      “Pontaさん、Ryukyuanという英単語は全然おかしくありません”
      
      　Markさんは琉球の方言がご専門ですのでご存じかもしれませんし、英単語としては、おかしくないでしょうが、その英単語を知っている日本人や沖縄人は少ないじゃないでしょうか？　日本語訳では、琉球人とありますが、この語もかなり限られた文脈でしか使われず、「私は琉球人です」という言い方はあまり聞かない。沖縄出身者が私は部落民です、と言うことは絶対にない。いや、burakumin　という言い方も、仮に本人がそうであったとしても、部落出身者という言い方はするかもしれませんが、本人がすることはないでしょう。彼は被差別部落の意味がわかっていない。要するに、この方の母国語は日本語ではない、ということはほぼ明かでしょう。沖縄出身で海外生活が長いとしても、部落と混同することはまずありえないでしょう。
      
      　沖縄出身者に対する差別については、現在では、年配の人を含めて、たぶん、ある都道府県出身者が他の都道府県出身者に対して差別がある、あるいは、ないの、と同じ程度であろう、というのが今の私の認識です。
    - weirdo
      
      Markさん、僕自身あまり沖縄方言が分からないのですが父によると「ウレーウチナーグチアランドー、イミワカランドー」と言っていました「沖縄方言じゃないよ、意味がわからない」。
      
      Pontaさん、父に聞いてみましたが沖縄出身という理由で差別された覚えはあまりなかったと言っていました。Ryukyuanについても「あんま使わんけどな」と言っていました。
    - ponta
      
      weirdoさん
      ありがとうございます。
      ぼくは、沖縄人に対する差別について全く無知だったので、以前、５０代の沖縄出身の配偶者を持つ女性に「そんなのあったの？」と聞いたことがあります。そしたら、中学か、高校を出て、本土に就職して、なにかものがなくなったとき、彼が疑われた、という話をしていたことがある、と言っていました。まったくなかったとは言えないのでしょうが、個人差もあるのかな、と思います。もっとも、現在でも、沖縄人に対して、というより、戦後の歴史や、米軍基地問題などの関係で、沖縄県が差別されている、という複雑な意識はあるのでしょうが。
    - weirdo
      
      Pontaさん、彼が疑われたのは本当に沖縄人だったからなんですか？
      私には沖縄人だったことは偶然でほかの理由で毛嫌いされていた確率の方が高いと思うんですが、まぁ、確かに全く差別が無いと言う事も無いでしょうけどね。
    - ponta
      
      weirdoさん。
      　そこらへんが微妙なところで、例えば、東北の人が、東北弁を真似された、と言って差別だ、という場合もある。個人的には、「沖縄の人って云々」という悪口は生まれてこの方、表でも裏でも、聞いたことがない。もっとも、最近、８０近くのおじいさんが沖縄の人の悪口を言っていました。彼は、最近、沖縄出身の女性ーー６０代だか、７０代だと思いますけどーーーにふられたのです。それまでは、沖縄絶賛論者だったんですけど・・・そのくらいですね。
    - weirdo
      
      高齢者も青春してるんですねｗ
- k
  
  Japanese people really have to learn that it doesn’t sound right in English when they refer to themselves as “We Japanese”… It sounds like you belong to some big cult and that you’re all psychically linked or something. Try phrasing it like this instead ” As a Japanese person blah blah opinion”.
  - The Overthinker
    
    It’s a pet phrase: wareware nihonjin.
    And while I don’t know where this exact phrase originated, there was a lot of propaganda efforts made both after the Meiji Restoration and in the years leading up to WW2 to create this idea of the Japanese people as a solid mass, rather than then diverse collection they were before. This fits into the same mindset of creating imagined communities. There are probably similar phrases in America, for example, though I’m not sure offhand what they might be. At any rate it does have the effect of giving the person using it the impression that they are speaking for 120 million other people.
    - steve
      
      It reminds me of how it is, according to the Chinese government, possible to offend the Chinese people. All of them. All at once. All 1+ billion of them.
    - The Overthinker
      
      It’s just a knack….
- ij487i
  
  “what is clear is that,
  in japan, there are hardly any racist
  like the westerner.”
  
  Of course not, since you, by virtue of being Japanese, are not prone to experiencing racial discrimination. Therefore in your mind it does not exist.
  
  “ordinary gaijins will have warm welcomes from the Japanese people.
  (but they need to be able to speak　our language freely, read and write.
  and need understand our sense.”
  
  So can gaijin who can’t read or write Japanese “freely” get warm welcomes too?
- lovely
  
  why do japanese travel in large groups in my home country. we in my home country are anxious about those japanese travelling in big groups. japanese must not disturb the order in my home country.
  
  are thess statements okay?
  probably not – so the one by arerae is not okay either.
http://surrealu.blogspot.com/2009/06/do-you-know-about-mameshiba.html claytonian

Guys that try to stop bike-parkers have an impossible job too.
hotbertaa

I saw the full tv show. They approached alot of different people. Drunk guys sleeping on the street, people smoking infront of no smoking signs, various people sitting on rails… The guy in the video above exploded when asked to move, there was no need for it.
Eddie

This video is nothing, you’ll find far worse examples in America, Australia, and England!!

Besides, we don’t really know what happened, perhaps there was bullying involved, or perhaps the guy was just an idiot looking to vent some anger at the security patrol.
- Brian
  
  You typically wouldn’t find something like this in, say, New York or Los Angeles. I don’t think it’s quite fair to compare behavior in downtown Tokyo to some podunk, impoverished conservative places in other countries.
  - Weirdo
    
    As a resident of LA, I’d like to say　”LOL”.
Iago

Reminds me of Captain Mainwaring in “Dad’s Army”…
Weirdo

どっちもオーバーなんだよ、あのガードレールのおっさんも注意されたらすぐに素直に聞くべきだったし、警備のおっさんたちもリアクションが大げさすぎ。とくにあの「やるのか日本の侍と」って言ってたデブとか。（笑）
- The Overthinker
  
  And what’s the bet his ancestry isn’t even bushi….
anti

These fake Shibuya Gestapo cops don´t have the authority to tell anyone anything. Why do not they take a hike! The next time, I see that guy in Shibuya and if he tells me anything I´l tell him in a polite manner that he should stick his head where the sun never shines in 日本語！！
- Ajapa
  
  Are there any troll-alert siren ringing?
  
  Someone here said…
  
  I saw the full tv show. They approached alot of different people. Drunk guys sleeping on the street, people smoking infront of no smoking signs, various people sitting on rails… The guy in the video above exploded when asked to move, there was no need for it.
  
  These fake Shibuya Gestapo cops might have been irritated by bad-mannered people, not by resistances, spies, anti-Japanese people, anti-DPJ people, people of an ethnical group, and so on. That black guy might be considered a victim of something…
anti

どっちもオオバじゃないよ。あのじじ〜が建ち悪いんだよ。関係ないのによ、絡みやがって、それは、切れるは. 日本のサムライとか言うちゃって、サムライかゴキブリか知らないけど、ジジ〜じゃまなんだよ。帰れ。
- weirdo
  
  ( ゜Д゜) ぽかーん・・・
  - helical
    
    もうなんなのｗｗｗ
    巨大な釣り針ばかりで何がなんだかｗ
anti

新小岩のおやじが渋谷に来ると絡むんだよね。
面倒なんだよ。お前、関西人？
radical pikachu

Patrol should use a loud speaker. I don’t know why but somehow it always works.
Bad Wolf

You all do realize that this whole thing was staged, don’t you? I mean, Helloooo.
- RMilner
  
  So what?
  
  It still reveals something important about the situation in Japan.
Karisu

I understand that there are Japanese people that read this site, but this is an English language blog about Japan. So, it can be a little frustrating when there are huge stretches of comments purely in Japanese which I have no ability to follow.

Knowing that this is an English language site I would think it would be considerate to keep the dialog in English (where possible).

And before someone just dismisses my comment with “learn the language”, I am. However, I am not some savant who can learn a radically different language in a couple months.
- Ajapa
  
  I understand your frustration.
  
  However, Discussion Policy of Japan Probe says:
  
  No comments in languages other than English or Japanese.
  
  It is often a heavy load and frustrating for Japanese to write thier opinion in English, too. I think someone will translate worthful part of comments written in Japanese to English whenever necessary.
- Kevin
  
  Sorry, but you said it best: “Learn the language.” I’m sure it is frustrating not being able to understand blocks of comments, but as you said, this is a blog about Japan, and sometimes Japanese is a necessity. Consider these comments an excellent learning device because you’re getting a wide range of comments in Japanese by both native and non-native Japanese speakers.
  
  As far as I can tell, comments are in English where possible
  and the use of Japanese is for facilitating an extension of the debate.
  - kingofjamos
    
    wow another nasty little comment by “kevin” why hide behind a english name when its apparent your japanese? these guys are obviously looking for trouble and confrontation, gaijins are an easy target for them and they hope to get sympthathy from the police and general public. one question though there dorky little uniforms didnt come for free. who is funding this private army? seriously these losers are laughable but what next if these goons get public acceptance for their nasty behaviour?
    - ponta
      
      家瓶ならいのかな？日本語ができると日本人だと思われるのかな？英語っぽい日本人名はまずいのかな？
    - SWater
      
      Based on my observation of his comments in Japanese, I can tell you for sure Kevin is not a native speaker of Japanese.
      
      http://www.japanprobe.com/2009/10/01/details-emerge-in-case-of-child-abduction/
- weirdo
  
  http://www.japanprobe.com/commentsdiscussion-policy/
  - Karisu
    
    What was the point of this comment? Did you not see Ajapa’s comment above yours?
    - weirdo
      
      I loaded the page earlier in the day and hadn’t refreshed it before responding. So yes, I didn’t see Ajapa’s comment since it was not displayed on my screen yet.
- k
  
  sucks for you, this should get you motivated to study though, learning Japanese is a bitch
- Mike
  
  …says “Karisu”
  - Karisu
    
    Huh? Yes, says Karisu.
    
    I’m not sure what your point is.
    
    Like most people on the net, I on occasion use a nickname. My real name is Chris, so before I learned that “Chris” was written as Kurisu in kana (well romaji here technically), I thought it would be spelled with an “ka” instead of a “ku”. And it just stuck as one of the online nicks I use.
    
    I read a blog about Japan, so clearly I have an interest in the country (and it’s language), so I don’t see why it’s so odd that I have a Japanese-esque nickname.
Blue

You know what? Those guys should be grateful they called the police and not SCGP Commander Aibon.
HamachiMan

Let’s see how ‘foreigners’ fare in other countries when they go around shoving and antagonizing and being hostile to the local natives.

Just try to pull that macho stunt in Thailand, China, Singapore, and see where it gets you.

Cry racism and Japanese ‘racism’ and ‘xenophobism’ to cover up your own wrong doings.

I changed my views rather quickly when I realized how hostile and uncalled for these foreigners acted.
http://blog.havill.com/ Eido Inoue

I do appreciate it when the patrols force people to extinguish their cigarettes (I’ve seen them do this to a few Japanese).

But I’m prejudiced; I hate smoking.
David

I saw a news video about foreigners in japanese prisons. Yep, you guessed it right, most of the foreign prisoners I saw in that video were black.
Samue l welsh

I hate racism its just evil.
African people are great, I have both many japanese and african friends.
To learn japanese and thier customs is very important.
sadily thier are racist cops here though avoid them.

More bullying from the Shibuya Center-Gai Patrol

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