“they don’t want citizens of countries that are taught to hate Japan vote in Japanese politics”

A simplification, perhaps, but a perfectly reasonable view IMHO.

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Which is why it is so annoying: the larger issue gets buried in fear and anger towards Korea and China. I’m not saying it’s not an understandable POV, and with residents loyal to Nork especially it’s something that has cans of worms lurking in it. But it means that the concept can’t be discussed without this, much like other rights for foreigners.

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While I agree that there’s cause for concern due to anti-Japan sentiment, I think that denying those residents rights is just going to exacerbate the problem. Giving these people the right to vote might be a step in the right direction towards healing old wounds between the different countries. I also think it’s worthwhile mentioning that the population of Zainichi Koreans who support North Korea (Chongryon party, IIRC) has plummeted over the last thirty years. They’re fast losing power and relevance, and I don’t think that it’s a fair reason to deny the majority of Zainichi from voting.

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It’s not me who are refering to “the current Dutch situation”. There are a few people who are repeatedly refering to that. That’s not interesting at all but if you are just curious, I will offer you. Their claims, presumably exaggerated for the purpose of agitation or a complete lie, are basically these two:

Netherland is taken over by immigrants now as a result of granting voting rights to them.

Please know the reality. In Netherland, since the voting rights for foreigners was given to immigrants, they had started to be gathered and to live in particular regions together, and then they utilized their voting rights to declare the independence and the situation that immigrants are taking over the country is, just now, happenning. The Japanese TV never reports this fact for some unknown reason.

I am tired of reading these comments, but it seems that only two persons are refering to “the current Dutch situation” above, again and again.

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And a lot of Zainichi Koreans obtain Japanese nationality.

But there’s another factor that is becoming relevant for Japan: Huge number of South Korean and Chinese immigrants.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote

—If Tottori (for example) did the same, it could (would, perhaps) cause reverberations that would reach Tokyo.–

yepp.. it will shake the whole system of political and yakuza clans very strong down to the real democracy.

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“it will shake the whole system of political and yakuza clans”

I swear – there needs to be a law or something, a sign like on rides at amusements parks: “Your intellect must be this high to ride the internet”.

Go away and come back when you know what the hell you are gibbering about. “Political and yakuza clans” – sheesh.

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I swear – there needs to be a law or something, a sign like on rides at amusements parks: “Your intellect must be this high to ride the internet”.

Go away and come back when you know what the hell you are gibbering about. “Political and yakuza clans” – sheesh.—-

just, shut up!

http://books.google.com/books?id=rFHNBQSbz0gC&lpg=PP1&dq=Corruption%20in%20contemporary%20politics&pg=PA106#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://www.ikjeld.com/japannews/00000242.php

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/politics-corruption.htm

aside that

you cant pretend to be democracy and ignore the fact that some places have over 20% of population with forign citizenship.

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“If Tottori (for example) did the same, it could (would, perhaps) cause reverberations that would reach Tokyo.”

I don’t follow your logic. While I agree there is a lot of micro-managing by the central government, I don’t see the reverse happening–how could voting for a Mayor in Tottori affect Tokyo? Am I missing something here?

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My logic was basically this: in the US, individual states have a whole lot of power as independent political units, and to greater or lesser extents use it. One of the cornerstones of government in the US is that, at least in theory, each State is a complete political unit unto itself and Washington is there for issues that are too big for any one individual State to handle on it’s own. Power (and there is a wide range of opinion and practice here) comes from the bottom up, or “devolves to the States”. Therefore what any individual State does within its own borders, as long as it is not exceeding what Federal law allows, is an issue for that State and that State alone. Likewise if something is not proscribed by State law individual communities or counties can allow something to be legal that may be illegal the next town over.

So, for example, some towns in Nevada allow gambling and prostitution, and in some States alcohol is illegal. Years ago, States set their own drinking ages, and a State can set the speed limits on interstate highways within the boundaries of that State. Washington can sometimes coerce States to get what it wants (like threaten to withhold Federal highway funds if the States don’t set a speed limit Washington wants), but it can’t force the States to set their own laws and in fact coercion may backfire (as it did back in the ’70s when Nevada refused to give in to pressure to drop the speed limit to 55, and in fact responded by removing all speed limits on highways just to make a point – being independently wealthy thanks to tax revenue from gambling can be a nice thing).

Now, Japan is in many ways the opposite, however being small and so interconnected what happens locally often has a much larger impact on the national scene then you would expect. In the States, governors like Hashimoto or Higashikokubaru would probably be completely ignored outside their respective States. Look at Arnie – sure, everyone knows he’s the Governator of one of the largest and most powerful States in the US, but how much influence does he really have outside California? While I try to keep up with US news, I honestly can’t recall seeing Arnie hold forth on what Washington was doing wrong about this issue or that issue, nor can I recall seeing any national politicians asking for his opinion or responding to anything he did say. California is California, Washington is Washington.

But here, Hashimoto speaks and national news picks it up. Folks in Nagata-cho get asked for their opinion. Party brass rush to Osaka and Miyazaki to curry favor, explain their positions, or try to lure the governor over to The Dark Side. When Tanaka Yasuo was Governor of Nagano, his “anti-dam” policy not only upset Tokyo, but it egged on citizens’ and political groups in other areas of Japan. Again, this is something I don’t see happening in the States. If the Governor of Pennsylvania announced a “no dam” policy, the effect on Montana would be almost exactly zero – “That’s Pennsylvania, this is Montana!”

Similarly, if for example Hashimoto extended local voting rights to all adult residents of Osaka prefecture, that would likely create a huge scene in the political world all over Japan – both in other prefectures and in Nagata-cho. If Arnie did it? Might make the 6 o-clock news on CNN, but the impact outside of California would likely be nil. Washington probably would not care less.

That was my logic.

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Popo, the town with the largest number of foreign residents as a percentage of the local population is Oizumi in Gunma with 15.6%. No city, town or village has “over 20% foreign citizenship”. Not one.

Now, California’s population is 28% foreign-born. 70% of people in Hialeah, Florida and 60% of people in Miami are foreign-born. Neither allows foreigners to vote even in local elections. So I guess there is no democracy there either, eh?

Oh, and about corruption: while it does exist, independent international studies have consistently ranked Japan low on the scale, higher than many of the EU countries perhaps, but usually lower than the US. Japan isn’t perfect in this regard, but it is overall pretty darn good. Where they fall behind horribly is that when a politician is caught for corruption, it is usually for amounts that a US pol would laugh at for being pathetically small.

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—Popo, the town with the largest number of foreign residents as a percentage of the local population is Oizumi in Gunma with 15.6%. No city, town or village has “over 20% foreign citizenship”. Not one—

even if it is “only 15,6%” it is still the same. you cant exclude taxpaying, economicaly, social and cultural active population from the political system where they live.

—Now, California’s population is 28% foreign-born. 70% of people in Hialeah, Florida and 60% of people in Miami are foreign-born.—

gosh. we are talking about “FOREIGN CITIZENS” NOT “FORIGN-BORN” You even dont make the diferences. therefore just, SHUT UP!.

–Oh, and about corruption: while it does exist, independent international studies have consistently ranked Japan low on the scale, higher than many of the EU countries perhaps, but usually lower than the US. Japan isn’t perfect in this regard, but it is overall pretty darn good. Where they fall behind horribly is that when a politician is caught for corruption, it is usually for amounts that a US pol would laugh at for being pathetically small.–

blabla relativism at life. and how it makes my mean about relationsystem and corruption in japanese policy false?

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poo-poo, Where did you get this idea that Japan is a democracy?

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I’m not going to go deep into the matter of local vs national etc, but I think- if you’re comparing the US to Japan- there is another important distinction to keep in mind. It’s more difficult to get Japanese Citizenship rather than just Permanent Resident status. Japan is one of few first world countries that demands that you only hold one citizenship- Japanese or bust. If a US Citizen naturalizes he must sacrifice his US Citizenship. Likewise if a Japanese citizen were to naturalize in the US he’d have to give up his Japanese citizenship since Japan wouldn’t let him keep both. (But on the other hand, if a US citizen naturalized in France, or vis versa, he or she would be able to hold onto both citizenships).

This is a significant issue since a lot of people don’t like the idea of abandoning their home country. Particularly in the case of the Zainichi ethnic group, they feel that to renounce their Korean Citizenship is to deny who they are. (in this case, South Korea is as much to blame as Japan- it doesn’t allow dual citizenship either).

So, I would say that this is one more reason to give Japanese permanent residents more rights- perhaps not a good enough reason to ignore all counter arguments, but a reason to be considered; becoming a Japanese citizen is more difficult and has more drawbacks than becoming a citizen of other countries.

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“Particularly in the case of the Zainichi ethnic group, they feel that to renounce their Korean Citizenship is to deny who they are.”

Yes, but who are they? They are in no real way Korean. They are people who were born and raised in Japanese society by people born and raised in Japanese society to people born and raised in Japanese society.

When you see Zainichi arguing with each other, what language are they arguing in? Japanese, of course, because especially for the younger generation they probably could not hold even a basic conversation in Korean.

What schools did they go to (OK, aside from a few kids born to die-hard North Korea supproters)? What TV shows did they grow up on? What music do they listen to?

There is nothing “Korean” about Zainichi Koreans. Aside from their passport. I will give you the fact that the hurdles for naturalizing are high. But they are higher for non-Zainichi than they are for Zainichi, and for the past couple of years more non-Zainichi have been naturalizing in Japan than Zainichi. Sure, if they became Japanese they’d have to give up their old passport – and? So? Are they planning on going back to Korea and living there? No – so what is the big deal?

Basically, I feel that if people were interested in becoming citizens and trying to become citizens, but due to some incredibly high bureaucratic obstacle were effectively prevented from doing so, then perhaps there would be an argument for enfranchising those people. But that is not the case here. The naturalization process has gotten easier, and the numbers of people taking Japanese citizenship has never been higher – and yet some Zainichi refuse to do it. You could make it automatic: “Special Permanent Resident? OK, take this piece of paper down to your local city hall and get your Japanese Koseki. Then go get a passport – you’re in” and some Zainichi still wouldn’t do it. They choose to be on the outside, why should those who are citizens or who have earned citizenship have to treat them as political equals by giving them the right to vote?

As for “drawbacks” to becoming Japanese – name one. I can’t think of one. Sure, if I became Japanese I would not be able to go back to the States on a moment’s notice and live there permanently. Not planning on doing that anyway. So I’d only have one passport – I only have one now, and it is not the passport of the country I call home. Not doing me much good, now is it? And even if I could become Japanese and still have a US passport, what good would that do me here at home in Japan? I couldn’t be a US citizen in Japan, the US passport would be worthless here.

To people who say “I don’t want to abandon my home country” my response has always been “then why aren’t you living there?” Or to people who say “I don’t want to renounce who I am” I say “Who you are is not determined by the color of your passport – and if you think it is then you’ve got a screw loose”.

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Establishing a foreign residents council is not the issue here. They’re discussing local suffrage–the right to choose/dismiss local officials. See paragraph 66 of the same article.

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-trolling comment deleted at the request of user-

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