Why do Australian people go against whaling so much?
The Beat Takeshi “World Summit” program (seen in this previous post) asks its Australian panel members to explain why they don’t like whaling (partially subtitled in English):
A very heated discussion takes place, with the Australians arguing that whales are intelligent and close to humans. When they can’t seem to convince Japanese of the righteousness of their views, the whole thing becomes an emotional screaming match. Foreigners from France, Britain, and Brazil join the argument on the Japanese side. The foreign panelists are eventually asked to vote for or against whaling. Only 16 of the 50 panelists raise their hands to oppose Japanese whaling.
The most hysterical person in the clip is Stuart-O, an Australian tarento whose web profile doesn’t include his nationality and advertises him as a native speaker of American English. He’s got a blog here, which is apparently open to reader comments.
As was noted by Matt in the comment section of the last post, it wasn’t exactly a fair fight. Stuart-O and the other Australians probably came from a talent agency for wannabe celebrities and it is doubtful any of them were experts on the topic they discussing. In contrast, the Chinese team included university professors who were able to debate without looking like screaming idiots.
Later in the program, the Japanese went back to their smaller base room to talk amongst themselves. Here’s one line that makes a good point about why anti-whaling arguments tend to fail in Japan:
The arrogant attitude of superiority that many anti-whaling activists assume when arguing against Japanese whaling is not helpful.
Note: A Japanese user has uploaded most of the show to YouTube. If you can speak and read Japanese, check it out on this channel.
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James, his profile that you linked says his language is “American English”. Proud Aussie, that one is.
I wonder–his blog also does not give his birthplace. Could he be an American hired to pretend to be an Aussie?
arrogant attitude of superiority?
this is the typical “iiwake” explanation of Japanese when they cannot justify themselves, they turn into complex “pure us mistreated by white people”
Quite comfortable approach, in this way you can do whatever you want and if some foreigner criticizes you… “you are an arrogant with attitude of superiority!!”
Watch “Whale Wars” for a bit and you’ll know the general aire of what they’re referring to.
I’m Australian and I dislike discussing topics with Americans because of their arrogance and attitude of superiority.
It’s not an excuse being used by Japanese people – it’s an atmosphere that makes one very much disinclined to continue a conversation.
For the record, the more educated segment of the Australian population objects to Japanese whaling on a very different issue: Whale-watching (of whales that migrate from Antarctica up the eastern Australian coast) contributes a lot to the tourism business. When Japanese whaling ships go so far south to hunt whales, even though they are hunting in international waters, people start to think it’s a little unsporting. Sure, it’s a Japanese tradition and all — does that tradition extend to Antarctica? Would it be all right for Australian ships to sit off Okinawa and hunt migratory birds?
Personally I feel Japan is trying to have its cake and eat it, too: if you don’t agree with the treaty, don’t sign the treaty! Do like Norway and go it alone. It would have no negative effect, and it would remove the pesky argument regarding research vs. commercial whaling.
Are you catching up with the latest news?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8112055.stm
Ponta, I don’t see what your point was. I’m actually sympathetic to both sides, in case that didn’t come through.
As for your first news quote, I think that’s great. Everybody wins! (not sarcastic)
“….the nutritional needs of indigenous peoples”
Except it would be rather hard to argue Japan needed whales on that basis….
Simon
Sorry if I confused you.
My point was just inform the latest discussion I know.
The Overthinker
Right, then again, we can survive without any animal meat though we might not be optimized for that.
But you could make that argument that with ready supplies of beef and pork and chicken, whale is not needed for nutrition.
The Overthinker
I don’t think so.
If you can survive without animal meat, and killing animal is as wrong as killing human beings, it is wrong to kill, for instance, the pigs just as it is wrong to kill, for instance, the Japanese , just to please your appetite.
And if nutrition of animal meats is necessary and if you are justified to kill animals enough for your survival, there is no reason you save only, for instance, pigs but you can kill other animals.
In a nutshell,
1)If the sustainability is the criterion, it should be that you can kill as much animal as long as it is sustainable.
2)If don’t-treat-sentient-animals-in-painful-way/treat-animals-in the^the-least-painful-way is another standard, that should apply to pigs, cows, kangaroo, whales equally.
3) if you can kill the animals just enough to satisfy your nutritious need, there is no reason just to pick up one specie, provided 1) obtains.
4) If you can’t kill animals unless killing them is absolutely necessary for you to survive, perhaps vegetarians are right.
For the record, the more educated segment of the Australian population objects to Japanese whaling on a very different issue: Whale-watching (of whales that migrate from Antarctica up the eastern Australian coast) contributes a lot to the tourism business.
So, the more educated segment of the Australian population now understand the silliness of their old rhetoric for objecting whaling: Whales are intelligent, cute, beautiful, and … anyway whaling is a criminal act. Nice to hear that.
Please teach them that kangaroos contribute a lot to the Australian tourism business too. And also note that a owner of a stock farm may utilize their cows to attract tourists while selling their beef to earn money.
Your sarcasm aside, your analogy is pretty silly.
We know that kangaroos contribute to tourism. Have you seen any tourism literature published by the Australian government recently?
Are you trying to say that we should stop hunting kangaroos for sport and meat? Do you know how tiny a fraction of the kangaroo population is hunted each year? You might as well say “don’t kill cockroaches”.
Given the massive amounts of strain cattle raising and sheep herding has put on the Australian environment, kangaroo is a much better meat to be eating.
To Simon,
Are you trying to say that we should stop hunting kangaroos for sport and meat?
No, not at all. I’m not so opposed even to the leisure hunting.
If you are not going to protest against Japanese whalers to do only small-scale sustainable whaling near the Japanese shore, I have nothing to say against you. However, I suspect that many Australian will never be satisfied with that. Whale-watching industry may use an advertisement with a catch phrase something like “Watch whales, the most fascinating and magnificent creature on the planet!”, and then there will be many 10-year-old boys and girls who might want to shout “Stop massacring whales!” toward us barbaric whale-munchers. The situation will not change drastically unless most Australian treat whales and kangaroos (or cows) in a similar way, i.e., not treating whales as sacred creature specifically.
I posted my comment without reading your response to ponta’s comment mentioning on the latest news. I am sorry if I have offended you. I’m not hoping mass consumption of whale meat, but just want to protect tradition kept in a small rural area somewhere.
Simon: Just can’t help but take a nice huge general swipe at Americans, huh? I love it. Talking to Americans has nothing to do with it, but you just gotta bring it up.
Anyways, back to Max’s comment, many people against whaling go off the wall about it and do in fact come off as insanely arrogant. Racism has also touched this debate just a bit. When we are talking about the whale’s intelligence and so on, it’s setting up these types as some sort of Environmental Jesus who are the only ones who know the true value of these animals. The Japanese and anyone who don’t agree are therefore barbaric, ignorant, etc. It’s this type of hyperbole that turns people off.
Albert’s talk about kimono is precisely the type of stupidity I’m talking about. Who do citizens of nations (Australia as apart of the British Commonwealth) that used to engage in widespread whaling to the determent of the species try to argue against cultural identity and whaling being somehow related?
Stuart O and company came across as amazingly pompous.
All that being said, I can understand concern over the affects of whale hunting on Australian tourism industries. That’s about the only rational explanation for their opposition.
“Arrogance and attitude of Superiority.” Wow, I could say the same thing just about everybody on the planet. I guess it’s easy for you to take a swipe at the US because you have nothing add to the debate…
Did the panelists above say hakujin in the discussion?
I rarely hear Japanese use the word “hakujin” in conversation.
Have you really had discussions with the Japanese people?
Yes ponta, I agree.
I’m not sure if that person could understand or just read the subtitles, but if one can’t understand someone he shouldn’t criticize and quote them from some random summary translation.
The older French guy and British guy came out with the best comments.
The Australians on the panel seemed to lack basic debating skills, and had a poor understanding of culture, not to mention a lack of respect for the people they were debating with.
So…this is basically what went down.
Australians: BUT THEY’RE SO CUTE AND THEY CRY AND THEY’RE SO SMART
Japanese: Our culture, we’re hunting within allowed IWC for resea…
Australians:balsdfasl;dkghasdlfkj NO YOU CAN’T STATE ANY OPINIONS I’M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU
English/French guys: Pigs are also quite intelligent, if intelligence is a criteria for the disallowance of eating an animal, your country is quite hypocritical.
Australians: NO I’M GOING TO YELL UNTIL YOU STOP TALKING ASDFASDFASDF DOGS ARE STUPID
Crowd: *claps for English guy*
Those Australians could use some debate skills…
That “argument” was stupid just as one of the Japanese panelist’s comment that “we would stop whaling if the whale spoke, “don’t eat us”
There is a good argument though.
Why should the only whaling be stopped when the quota is sustainable and people, in particular Australian people and its government, approve of killing other other animals for food that are like human beings in intelligence and sentience in some respects.
I think it would make much more sense if Australian government insisted on Japan’s stopping whaling, saying Australian government would stop killing cows, pigs, chicken and kangaroo and stop the the export to save the animals.
豚はともかく、牛や鶏は頭が悪いと言う意見が一般的ですね。そもそもなぜ頭が良いイコール食べてはいけないと思われているのが私には分かりかねません。西洋人は頭がいいとされる豚を平気で食べるのに同じレベルのイルカは食べてはいけないと言う、偽善にもほどがある。自分の感情に理屈を強引に押し通そうとしているとしか思えません。
権利の主体要件として、どこで区切るか、がまず議論され、功利主義者だと、痛みを感じる能力で区切るのかもしれないが、カント主義的な傾向がつよいと、自己意識とか、計画設計能力などの知性が要求されるが、イルカは後者の能力があるが、他の動物はない、という主張は有り得る、と思います。
ただ、イルカだけ、飛び抜けてそれだけの能力が事実あるか、どうか、は、番組で言われていたように、本当のところはわからないし、逆に、他の動物には本当にないのか、そこもわからない。
そして、イルカや鯨を殺すのが可哀想、といっている論者のほとんどはーーーパネリストの一人が殺されるときの叫び声に注目しているようにーーーむしろ、痛みを感じる能力に着目しているのではないか、とも思います。
白人の権利→人間の権利、黒人差別の撤廃（∵知性、痛覚能力などで同じ）、というように、権利の保持者の輪が広がっていったように、人間の権利→動物の権利、動物差別の撤廃（∵知性、痛覚能力で人間と同じ、ないし、類似）、というように輪を拡げていきましょう、というのが、潮流なのだ、と 論じられるのも読んだことがあります。
ぼくは個人的にはこうした観点を取り入れるのをやぶさかではないし、どんな動物でも痛みをともなう残虐な取り扱いはすべきではない、というのは強力な議論で、例えば、こうした痛みを感じる動物の殺害数を鯨、豚、牛などを含めて、世界規模で減らしましょう、あるいは、殺すにしてもなるべく痛みのない方法にしましょう、あるいは、悲惨な飼育方法はやめましょう、というのを世界規模で公平にやる、というなら、話に乗らないわけでもないのですが、現在の大半の反捕鯨運動、あるいは、豚牛の残虐飼育や殺害を容認している政府による反捕鯨の主張には、なにか非常に胡散臭さを感じています。
おっしゃるように、臓器が人間に移植されたり、「頭がいいとされる豚を平気で食べるのに同じレベルのイルカは食べてはいけない」というところに非常に偽善くささを感じる。
全く同感です、日本側に今変えるべきとこがあるとしたら「どんな動物でも痛みをともなう残虐な取り扱いはすべきではない」ってとこでしょうかね。でも、はっきり言って豚牛の残虐飼育をしている国に言われたくありませんね。個人的には「うっぜぇよ、偽善者」としか思いません。
これもちょっと違うと思います。動物は結局殺されるので、そのやり方は別に問題なく、もし今変えるべきとこを考えているのであれば、ＩＷＣから撤退するべきだと思います。ＩＷＣという組織の目的はもともと商業捕鯨を管理するためであり、捕鯨を規則正しく発達するためでもあったので、もう捕鯨をやり続きたい国は入る必要じゃなくなってきました。
ちなみにイルカとほとんどのクジラの種類は絶滅寸前でないので、動物の権利という理由で食べられなくなれば、宗教的な理由で豚肉と牛肉を食べるのを禁止するべきである。そうしないと人間より動物の権利を重視していることと一緒で、差別的な行為ともなると思います。
動物の権利の議論を牛、豚、鯨などに公平に、同程度に、適用させるとしてーーーあるいはさせないとして、ーーー、IWCを脱退し、種としての鯨の生存の維持を確保した上で、、科学調査の名の下ではなく、商業補劇へすすむ道も、ありかな、とも思うこともあります。
しかし、そうなると、IWCが反捕鯨国に支配され、調査も適切に行われるともかぎらず、また、脱退した事実を、反捕鯨団体に悪用して宣伝されない、とも限らない。
下で、 Tully氏（2009-09-20 18:51:08 ）が、”Rather, there is a definite (racist) component to the vitriolic reaction against the Japanese whaling activities.
If the Japanese suddenly developed a “backbone” and told the anti-whaling world to “stuff it” (like the Norwegians and Icelanders have done), they’d get vilified even more.
“Despicable Japs” can’t turn into “Cool Vikings” overnight!”
と言っておられますが、こうした問題もある、と思います。
Let me quote some from the paragraph for animal rights,
This is why some prefer wild animals for food to the animals raised for food, The former suffers less pain.
Wild animals lives might be sometimes peeped into by human tourists and some of them lose lives in the battles against some human hunters and they die of stress but other animals for food are raised and die of much more stress. How about asking Rick O’Barry to shoot a film; the slaughterhouse, save Australia cows, pigs, chicken, kangaroos ?
Sorry but you are not using my logic, and the suggestion is ridiculous
If you’d bother to read the Japanese, you’d know that we’re not really against using more humane methods.
But then again, maybe the Australians should stop treating their farm animals so horribly before telling the Japanese what to do.
“Sorry but you are not using my logic, and the suggestion is ridiculous”
No more ridiculous than your suggestion, my friend.
“But then again, maybe the Australians should stop treating their farm animals so horribly before telling the Japanese what to do.”
Why is there this strange push to make it an Australia vs. Japan thing? USA, Europe, Japan – everyone has problems ensuring the mandated humane treatment of animals for food is followed. Isn’t Rick O’Barry an American? Didn’t a previous expose video on ‘the cove’ a few years back come from the BBC? Perhaps the average Japanese person may find it more uncomfortable to see the title “Why do most of Japan’s friendly trading partners go against whaling so much?” Far less a concern if we just make it those pesky Aussies.
I’m not a rabid anti-whaler, and although I’m glad to see at least this issue is finally being raised in public awareness, I’m saddened, if not surprised, to see how it’s being spun.
Another example – in the show, why did they interview a Greenpeace Japan “Australian staffer”? Why not interview a well-spoken native Japanese staffer? Why not have on the panel? Would that make the real sponsors of the show upset? Is there any real debate on the issue going on in the Japanese media?
“No more ridiculous than your suggestion, my friend.”
So you admit to not using his logic. Your suggestion was based on you turning ponta’s logic against him, which you did not. You’re just making yourself look foolish.
“Why is there this strange push to make it an Australia vs. Japan thing?”
Um…I mentioned Australians because, well….the people in the video were Australian, and claimed to speak on the behalf of Australia.
“Why not interview a well-spoken native Japanese staffer? Why not have on the panel?”
Because it’s not a show about discussing whaling per se it’s about asking foreigners about what they think.
My suggestion makes the claims by Australian government and some Australian people who oppose Japan’s whaling consistent and makes look less hypocritical.
Your suggestion just does not make sense.
I am for the friendships between Australia and Japan; Just don’t run after Japanese tourists with toy harpoon, and don’t bully Japanese Australians, sending them hate mails.
And tell your anti-whaling friends, Australian or not, to check the facts.
Legally, Japan is not breaking any international law.
(Just show us which law is Japan breaking,)
It is rather some anti-whalers who are breaking the law.
Morally, Japan is just as right as, or as wrong as any government who endorse the killing of the animals for food.
It is rather non-vegetarian anti-whalers who are morally inconsistent and who look hypocritical.
The only reasonable argument so far is that Japan’s whaling may be preventing Whale-watching which contributes a lot to the Australian tourism business.
Just show the evidences that the number of whales for watching has decreased because of Japan’s whaling and reduced the income, Then, I think, Japanese people will be more sympathetic to Aussie’s claim.
My suggestion makes the claims by Australian government and some Australian people who oppose Japan’s whaling consistent and makes look less hypocritical.
Your suggestion just does not make sense.
And you are saying that your suggestion is actually rational and realistic? They are both ridiculous.
I am for the friendships between Australia and Japan; Just don’t run after Japanese tourists with toy harpoon, and don’t bully Japanese Australians, sending them hate mails.
I’m for the friendship between Oz and Japan too. It’s unhelpful for you and that tv show to site isolated incidents and tongue-in-cheek comedy sketches. What have Japanese TV shows done to foreigners over the years in the name of comedy?
And tell your anti-whaling friends, Australian or not, to check the facts.
Huh? You may have missed the bit where I said I’m not a rabid anti-whaler. Maybe you and your apologist friends, Japanese or not, should take a chill pill. I’m interested in seeing Japan’s media take on an informed debate with suitably prepared proponents from various perspectives, rather than propaganda disguised as “lite entertainment”. Shame on the Aussies that naively participated in that show too.
The only reasonable argument so far is that Japan’s whaling may be preventing Whale-watching which contributes a lot to the Australian tourism business.
IYHO
Legally, Japan is not breaking any international law.
(Just show us which law is Japan breaking,)
It is rather some anti-whalers who are breaking the law.
I’m not as fluent in international law as you apparently are, so I’ll leave that to the experts. It does appear to me that laws, perhaps not international, are being broken, and generally weasley behaviour is taking place. Youtube: watch?v=V8ZwdySA7Ek&feature=player_embedded
At the least you admit that your suggestion is ridiculous.
Now my suggestion is that it makes more sense to accuse someone of cruel treatment of animals when she does not approve of her own cruel treatment of animals than when she endorses the cruel treatment of the animals by her own country.
Isn’t that rational?
Is it isolated incidents?
You may not be an anti-whalers but your friends might be.
未公開映像 水産庁との電話実録！ グリーンピースのクジラ肉裁判
This is about Two Greenpeace Japan activists who were “arrested Friday on suspicion of breaking into a delivery company branch and stealing whale meat that the group claims had been stolen by crew members of a research whaling ship”
Meanwhile “Greenpeace Japan, suspecting that Nisshin Maru crew members stole the meat, submitted a criminal complaint against 12 crew members to the Tokyo District Public Prosecutors Office ”
So ?
Now my suggestion is that it makes more sense to accuse someone of cruel treatment of animals when she does not approve of her own cruel treatment of animals than when she endorses the cruel treatment of the animals by her own country.
Isn’t that rational?
You previously suggested the Australian government stop killing cows, pigs, chickens and kangaroos, and not export the meat, which is not rational or realistic.
You’ve worded things better above, but the world isn’t that clearly black and white. Most Australians I know recognise that Australia is not a perfect country, but why does that automatically mean that some Australians can’t also suggest ways that Japan can raise their game too?
Is it isolated incidents? (List of two isolated incidents)
Yes, two good examples of isolated incidents. Both Japan and Australia, and every other country has a similar percentage of ignorant racists.
You may not be an anti-whalers but your friends might be.
Hahaha Classic… I think I might also possibly be friends with that guy that stole your lunch money in 7th grade?
The argument is basically the same.
It makes more sense to accuse someone of killing the whale in cruel ways when she stop farming, and killing pigs, cows, etc in equally, or more cruel ways than if she endorses the cruel farming and killing those animals.
Isn’t that rational?
Japan as regards the treatment of animals is consistent.
It endorses the killing of the animals for food.
Australian anti-whaling people who turn the blind an eye to the cruel treatment of animal while accusing Japan of the cruel treatment of the whales are inconsistent.
That is why.
I am not talking about consitent Australians who endorse the killing of animals for food equally or Australian vegetarians who blame the killing of animals equally.
Right both country have ignorant racists.
And I am talking about ignorant racists concerning the problem of the whales. I am saying, “please stop it”.
You might be possibly be friends with that guy, But the topic of the thread is the whaling and I am taking about inconsistent anti-whalers.
First, the Australians didn’t have any debating skills and 1 or 2 of them was a bit rude.
But even the human intelligence argument against whale killing, scientifically proven or not by consensus (I’d like to see this anyway), is a point in the debate, but it’s not something that will change minds.
The idea of not killing intelligent animals is based upon a society’s ethics/morals/culture.
It is wrong to say that any country shouldn’t kill intelligent whales because that is an idea of that country’s culture, that may not represent the other. Telling them what they can and cannot do in such respects is just making it the exact same culture as yours and showing no respect to the history of that society which is separate from the other.
And to anyone responding, don’t bring up whether it’s a part of culture or not as that has been discussed before. The point I’m trying to make in the paragraph above is the point at the end of the post. GET OFF YOUR SUPPOSED MORAL HIGHGROUND.
The fact that whales contribute to Australia economically through tourism and some are endangered are perfectly valid reasons against whaling.
I don’t get it –
so Dogs and Monkeys are OK? Typical of Aussies to say that!
And yeah this whole thing is being shoved down the throats of the Japanese JUST because Japan LOST the War. If the Australia had lost, it wouldn’t even have its own country UNDER THE FLAG of the BRITISH Commonwealth!
This is not entirely related, but perhaps it is tangentially related in some peoples’ minds.
I don’t see a problem with eating dogs or monkeys, necessarily; why should we pick and choose which animal has the privilege of being free of human consumption, and which animal is OK to eat?
But one should consider one’s health when eating animals. In that regard, I think that whales, dolphins, sharks (at least the fin), and monkeys are best uneaten, due to mercury and disease risks.
Sharks,I know plenty of people that have eaten shark meat. I refuse to eat something that could have at once eaten a human being. Then again I haven’t eaten dolphins or whales. To many visits to sea world as a child to even think of doing so. Besides after how that woman said she disliked the taste, I doubt it would be any different for me.
I can cure this argument. Just anyone that wants to eat whales/dolphins have to kill the whales themselves or they can’t eat them. Or they have to tour on a whale slaughter boat and watch. That will slash the whale hunting down. What happened to Kawaii? I am sure whales are cute. Can Japanese stand to be the killers of what they eat. I have had to see plenty of animals slaughtered and had to do a bit myself. Living on a farm teaches you a lot.
I don’t really see the problem with them eating whale or dolphin. I just don’t want to see animals go extinct. Turtle consumption had to be stopped here because of the population of the sea turtle.
Well I’m not one for being politically correct, but that comment about the kimono was really back-handed.
Regardless, I think Japan should be allowed to whale, but only in territorial waters. I can see the Australian argument for the sake of tourism. And I don’t approve of them going so far south to get it. The comment above about if Australia was allowed to hunt migratory birds off okinawa had a good point.
But again, my opinion on this is exactly what’s stated at the end by the woman. These Australians are quite rude, and I hate HATE _HATE_ Sea Shepard. The ignorance and rudeness these people put off remind me so much of some of America’s conservatives like the ones at the “Tea Party” last week in D.C.
I wouldn’t want to give into demands or threats by those kind of people either.
What’s wrong with the Tea Parties! I thought Dissent and Protest is Patriotic? What’s wrong with people from Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and other political parties protesting about Taxes, huge deficits and etc.. ?
Nothing as long as they actually know why they are protesting, but if they are protesting just because Rush Limbaugh told them too, that is a different matter.
What’s wrong with the Tea Parties? Really? The first thing that is wrong with them is that a lot of those people have no clue what they are talking about. Informed dissent and protest is patriotic. Parroting the right wing media that you live and die by is another thing.
When you have people getting all pissed off by Czars (White House advisers first put into place by Reagan and most recently expanded on by Bush II) despite not knowing that one of their most favorite political advisers to Bush, Karl Rove, is one of them you have to question people’s ability to faithfully research their positions and come to their own conclusions.
Ignoring stupid comments from all sides, I’m always impressed at the level of fluency of some of these people in these types of shows. I’ve known several very fluent people but they’re usually people that grew up in Japan and went to international schools like ASIJ or St.Mary or something. The Chinese and Koreans aren’t that surprising but seeing very fluent non-Asians is pretty cool.
Yeah, me too.
Though the downside is that the producer picks from a talent pool of people who can speak good Japanese, rather than people who might understand the issues better and can’t speak good Japanese.
That said, it wasn’t a scientific debate, it was light entertainment.
killer whales kill whales because they feel like it. Saw two killer whales drown a baby whale for six hours then rip off its jaw, eat its tongue and then just swim away…it was on discovery channel. If japanese people wanna eat whale its fine by me, but that dude sitting to the right of takeshi is a prick, if people talk to you in keigo, you should at least meet them halfway at tenego, even if they are being rude themselves.
was that the guy doing a lot of finger pointing? I thought that was kinda aggressive. At least for a Japanese.
And technically a killer whale is a dolphin, but who’s counting.
Looks the same to me. Dolphins are also dicks. Dolphins are actually the only other species besides man that kills others for fun. Yes, dolphins kill other dolphins and porpoise for no reason.
Just to mention I do think the comment that “the arrogant attitude of superiority that many anti-whaling activists assume when arguing against Japanese whaling is not helpful” clearly does not have nationality.
Hard to say if the producers of this show “stacked” the deck in picking certain people who would act a certain way. But having an attitude that it’s okay to kill kangaroos but not whales doesn’t win any arguement in my book.
And it is interesting that the most obnoxious anti-whaling person I ever ran across was Australian who wrote that she thought a Japanese child should be killed for every whale that was killed. Yes, her comments upset a lot of people.
I don’t like to believe that just because a person lives in a country they tend to be alike. But with comments and attitudes from more than one Australian, is this something they foster? Being so negative it stops any reasonable discussion?
For the record, I’m against killing whales and kangaroos. But what I am for is not the point anyway.
yea it seems like they chose a bunch of turds to represent the aussies, if they would have chose good debaters it might have mad them look bad and i dont think that would have been good for takeshi’s posse.
I dont blame them for killin kangaroos man, those bastards bang more than bunnies, if you dont kill um you’d just end up mowing them down on the streets with your car.
I see nothing wrong with eating whale meat if it is sustainable. In fact, sustainable wild meat is probably better overall than unsustainable farmed meat.
The big problem with sea fishing is that the oceans are open to all, so over-fishing/hunting is very difficult to prevent — the tragedy of the commons. Whether whales are endangered, various other species such as tuna, cod and anchovies are in trouble, but are not ‘cute’.
The whole cultural argument is unsound for various reasons.
Culture changes. Japan changed its culture to absorb western elements, notably, the eating of meat (beef and pork) was promoted after the Meiji restoration; Japan’s meat eating culture is not much over 100 years old. Japan’s whale eating culture is older, but only got into high gear after the introduction of western style intensive whaling techniques.
Western culture 100 years ago happily accepted the hunting of whales for oil production though not food. but we always are a lot more beef. The decline in hunting whales for oil was more to do with the introduction of mineral oil than other reasons. If the issue is the killing of whales, it doesn’t matter why they are killed.
The idea that whales are cute, intelligent and so on is pretty new in western culture and has been promoted as part of a general conservation movement to try to preserve endangered species. While that is a worthy goal in itself, the appeal to emotion may be the wrong way to go about it.
While Japanese may argue now that western nations should not seek to impose their anti-whaling culture on Japan, it goes both ways. Japan is seeking to impose its whaling culture on the west, using the IWC sanctioned scientific hunt as a back door to promote whale meat, the consumption of which was rapidly declining in Japan even before the IWC ban on commercial whaling.
Neither side is in the right while emotional/cultural arguments are given more prominence than rational/scientific ones.
Whaling is not a good idea, why?
Because their reproductive cycles are slow and you run the risk to extinct a species for short sighted commercial gain. Bam, end of discussion. No more stupid comparisons to cattle farming or cuteness need.
There is no conclusive evidence that Japan’s small scale whaling is having any serious impact on whale populations.
Not much of a “Bam, end of discussion” argument you’ve got there.
Japanese whaling has been approved as sustainable by the IWC, and the population of whales have been reported as increasing. Facts are quite useful when making claims, Buster. You might like to bring them to the table next time you make such bold claims.
Yeah, and you COULD hunt tigers or pandas (Chinese Medicine…) on a sustainable level. The point is that is a pretty stupid idea to commerically hunt down animals with a reproductive cycle thats just not suited for this kind of activity. Whats so bad about eating animals who reproduce fast and numerous?
Pandas and some tigers are endangered. Those whales are not. I don’t see the comparison. Obviously if they were, the IWC would condemn the act at once.
Speaking as an Aussie native, the three main reasons the “common people” here seem to be against whaling are as follows
a) The media presents the whaling in a generally negative light.
- This leads to a number of people who just “know” it’s wrong without being able to articulate an argument.
b) There’s a perception that the Japanese are somehow doing this in “our” waters.
- While Australia has a claim of a huge slab of the Antarctic and its waters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Antarctic_Territory), Japan does not formally recognize this claim under the Antarctic Treaty System. The only nations which do recognize the claim are the UK, New Zealand, France and Norway.
- So while many Australians consider the waters to be “ours”, they really aren’t.
- Most Australians aren’t even aware the dispute over ownership of these waters exists. It’s certainly not reported in the media.
c) The Japanese whaling is often portrayed as unsustainable
- The common perception of whales in Australia is that they’re all an endangered species.
- The idea that there are actually fairly common whale species that can be hunted at sustainable levels honestly does not occur to most people here.
A potential solution for the Japanese might be to do their southern ocean whaling in the seas off Queen Maud Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Maud_Land), the Antarctic claim of Norway. They’d be more welcoming of the whaling, and it wouldn’t impact the whale tourism of Australia as much.
Thanks for the insight. As many believed, it is an issue of mass media propaganda and political agendas. :\
Actually, that’s not the real issue at all. In all honesty, it’s more an issue of simple ignorance and lazy reporting than anything else. The Australian journalists reporting on the whaling aren’t giving whaling negative coverage out of any malice or for any racist reasons, as some claim. They give the negative coverage they do because they’re as ignorant about the realities of our territory and whale populations as the average person on the street.
As for political agendas, outside perhaps for quite legitimate concerns over tourism (one of our biggest exports) and territory claims (from the governments perspective, and from the perspective of international law, it needs to continue to defend its claims to that territory or it’s effectively surrendered its claims and will never have a chance for full international recognition), none of which really gets into the media to begin with, most of the statements against whaling by politicians come from either radical green elements, or from politicians simply making statements to pander to the already ignorant masses for votes. They’re only coming out against whaling so strongly for the most part because they perceive those statements resonating with the voters, and it’s an issue that they can talk big about without ever needing to actually achieve something really measurable or observable to Joe Average on the street. If the voters suddenly changed their minds, the politicians (excepting the radical greenies) would all be backflipping positions on the issue so fast they’d be a blur.
Excellent TV programme!
antiwhaler 16/50.
we vigorously refuted hypocrite’s claims.
but,
whale problem be deeply rooted in hatred arising from racial discrimination.
more important thing
↓
youtube watch?v=whJt51zG0t4
Racism is clearly a big problem in Aussie’s hypocrite.
I couldn’t agree more
I LOVE Keiterin (19)!!! They should show more the blond girl.
Thank you for translating it. This program lacks one serious thing – its does not have show host, so it’s unorganized like bazaar, where everyone just speaks over each other and those with high voice pitch we can only hear. I don’t understand anything from this program.
Beat Takeshi is the host, and his method is to get two sides in a studio to have a go at each other. It’s not as uncivilised as The Jerry Springer Show, but it’s not like a proper debate, where the chairman controls the speakers.
You are right that’s format of program, but still television has its limits. It can not broadcast all excitement and emotions what’s going on in studio. Any message can be delivered to opponents while speaking normally.
I like Japan and their culture, but I serious disagree with them on this issue.
First of all, they should have brought better anti-whale advocates. I could have argued better than that. They shouldn’t have brought up the intelligence issue or the kimono argument.
Just stick with the issue of declining whale population, and why we should preserve them for everyone.
Also, I don’t like the whole, “why are you attacking our culture” argument. What if it was in someone’s culture to use out of date technology which polluted the environment we all share. We if we tried to change that, and they said, “You think you are better than us, with your air of superiority.” It was be a ridiculous argument. Anyone can use that argument, but it doesn’t make them right.
I am truly disappointed in Japan when it comes to this issue.
The way I see it, whether the culture argument has any relevance depends on whether the cultural practice of party A has any real-world effect on the people of party B.
The distinction to make here is between “harmful” and “offensive”.
If this were about polluting a shared environment, party B certainly has the right to complain and protest to party A.
So in this case of whaling, if the focal point of the argument was about Japan unfairly depleting a tourism revenue resource for Australia using culture as an excuse, then Australia should have a right to protest the practice and demand the cessation of that cultural practice, change it into a harmless alternative if possible, or find some method for compromise or compensation.
But arguments about superior whale intelligence is still questionable and brings on the other question of whether intelligence should even be the deciding factor for harvesting. The decision to use that as the guiding metric is cultural as well.
And when it comes to arguments based on superior cuteness … yeah.
Also, I believe the whale species that the IWC has allowed for whaling are actually increasing in population.
Am I the only one who would prefer Beat Takeshi stick to movies?
Isn’t it just fine for people to eat whatever animal/mammal they wish as long as they don’t get to the level of extinction…?
if it’s the issue of the animal’s pain, then shouldn’t we stop eating all kinds of living things? Just because a pig can’t “communicate like humans do”, does it really mean that the little piggy can’t feel any pain when you slaughter them? same goes for plants doesn’t it? just because a flower doesn’t have a mouth to communicate and tell it’s in pain? ok…maybe Im stretching it a little bit there since plants don’t have nerves systems like us lol
but the point is! I think it’s ok to eat whatever animal/mammals/insects or what-hav-u as long as you know when to stop (close to extinction levels for ex.)
if not….we could always go starve ourselves and not eat anything but gravel, since we won’t have to worry about the moral issues etc XD
Life is pain. You can take away killing and there will still always be pain.
There’s a reason why the circle of life works and shouldn’t be upset. Then again the circle of life doesn’t work when its manipulated with over-excess. It has always worked with only take with what you need and nothing more.
In most cases the piggies and cows and other commonly eaten animals are slaughtered in a way that each culture’s people believe is to be quick and humane. I don’t think the same can be said about explosive harpoons on the high seas. However I do believe that a visit of a day or so to the local slaughterhouse would make all but the most hardened of carnavores (like myself) think twice about meat.
I actually thought Albert was calm and collected, until he shouted out 着物を着て来い. What an idiot.
Crimes against people are no problem. Just don’t mess with the whales.
“I’ve always found it funny that Australians, people of criminal lineage, are offended by fishing.”
Are you joking?! Haven’t you heard of throwing shrimp on the barbie? Also whats with the Aussie attack? Wasn’t Hugh Jackman just on the news. I thought everyone thought he was nice, kind, polite and thoughtful to the people in Japan during his visit. I thought he did a great job representing his country.
Also this whole whaling thing. Don’t whales eat jellyfish? Wasn’t there an article about giant jellyfish invading the west coastline of Japan? Japan’s excuse was that the Chinese didn’t know. Who cares if the Chinese didn’t know two wrongs don’t make a right.
The sea and ocean is showing it’s underbelly. If you don’t stop over fishing and come up with a new source of food, Japan will starve through its own idiocy. Japan is the worlds tenth largest population in the world.
Has anyone seen the Simpson’s cartoon episode where Homer is under the sea eating sea life like a food buffet? Imagine the 128 million Japanese & tax on another 6 billion for Chinese. Well I am surprised we have any fish left at all! Maybe everyone needs to learn to eat juvenile Giant Jellyfish because that’s what the whales were eating before they became a new future list number on the extinction list.
BTW I love the Japanese I just don’t like side stepping. Also there’s no way to be polite on a subject like this and say what you believe without stepping on toes.
There are many reasons why this issue has been clouded by irrelevant so-called facts and opinions. The plain truth is that Japan is in breach of many legal instruments they are party to. First their whaling methods are in many cases in breach of IWC regulations as it relates to the use of factory ships [apart from pike [Minkie] whales. They are in clear breach of rights over their use of whaling research permits issued by their Government, this research [which they never carried out in much depth prior to the 1986 Zero quota issued by the IWC] has been condemned by the IWC as ‘not needed’ and suspect. It was never indented by the IWC that lethal research would be carried out killing 1000’s of whales. In fact non-lethal research using dna etc has produced more credible research than any Japanese research. They are in breach of CITES, the convention in the trade in endangered species. They are in breach of many MEA’s [multi-lateral environmental agreements] such as the various treaties of the Antarctic treaty system -all of which they have signed up to. In all these matters they have proved to be ‘dishonourable’. There are clear legal remedies anti-whaling nations could take but don’t becasue of trade implications.
Whaling in Japan [before WWII] was only carried out by a few isolated islands and villages in Japan. It was only after WWII when the population was starving did the USA permit Japan to whale to survive. Why? because the USA found that 2 out of 3 POW’s had been murdered by the Japanese- maybe ‘let them starve’ was a retaliation method. Who could blame them?
The fact is that what they are doing is ussustainable, illegal and immoral.
It’s why i don’t buy any Japanese products any more.
My opposition is therefore not based on emotion even though I have swum with a solo friendly dolphin and have seen whales out at sea in various locations. The fact is that these creatures were almost hunted to extinction and Japan seems blind to the fact that they are interantional renegades.
Dave -Aotearoa-NZ
And what exactly does ‘Japan’ in general have to do with what the whaling community does? I always see this wholesale reaction about boycotting Japanese products, but what do the producers of Japanese goods in general have to do with whaling. Do we then boycott goods from other countries in general because what some segment of their community does is deemed offensive? Do people boycott goods from other countries because they eat dogs? Or kill seals?
Or is this just a Japanese thing, where what any one person or entity does applies to the entire country?
I can also guarantee that the past bloody history of WW2 has a LOT to do with Australians opinions on anything Japanese related. Of course they are going to have a more heated view of anything negative Japan/Japanese do compared to other nations, simply because of the past. Nothing you can do about that I suppose.
The way to enforce international agreements that are broken is trade sanctions -but that is against WTO rules. Thats how come Japan gets away with it’s illegal activity.
The IWC does not sanction Japans whaling -they sanction it themselves.
Quoting WWII was to explain how come they started large scale whaling and has notjhing to do with racism-after all 90% of the Japanese public don’t know much about the whaling issue. It was also the explain their mindset that they won’t be told what to do even thought they are breaking the rules. The same mindset that has them deny they were not the aggressors in WWII.
Opinions are fine but if you can;’t back them up with facts they are just opinion- and ignorant ones at that.
Canada hunts whales. So does Norway and Iceland. I guess we should boycott those countries as well.
“The fact is that what they are doing is ussustainable, illegal and immoral.”
The IWC exists to make sure the whale population isn’t reduced to extinction. Secondly, the whale hunt is not illegal. Lastly, what is moral or immoral is only your personal opinion. Some people think homosexuals are immoral, some think they’re moral. Thankfully most nations don’t base their foreign policies on your lack of knowledge a half-decent high school education could have fixed.
Canada does not hunt whales – some natives have a tiny quota based on what they have been doing for 1000’s of years. And yes boycott thse other countries too. Icelands tourism industry has been subject of a boycott. In fact the whale hunt as carried out by Japan is illegal becasue it is breach of all those things i previously raised. Why don’t you address that fact directly? Mauybe it’s becasue you can’t. A lie often repeated does not turn into the truth. Some of you guys should do your homework and stop believing japanese lies.
Do you have any third-party cites for those accusations of illegality?
Lack of facts and whatnot have never gotten in the way of many people’s arguments. When it comes to the issue of whaling and Japanese, you don’t need any facts at all, really. All you need is heated rhetoric, pictures/film of bloody oceans, and it’s a ‘packaged’ and done deal. Absolutely no verifiable facts needed!
I have 3 legal opinions from top lawyers in this field running to many pages -filled with facts. The issues raised are never debated because they all confirm Japanese whaling is illegal and that legal action can be taken and has a certain chance of being sustained.
I think we should all be thankful, and laud the TV station and the Producers for putting together such a panel discussion in the first place!
Here in the U.S., they would NEVER do a show like this.
Even the U.S. Presidential debates are “moderated” and calculated down to the last millisecond.
I am amazed that they would even have a show like this, to GIVE VOICE to those Australians on Japanese National TV!
Amazing.
That is rubbish. Have you seen other shows from the USA exposing issues -well there are plenty.
To be fair, whales are real douches.
Nobody wants to go to a beach when there’s a beached whale there.
That’ll ruin everyone’s day. Thanks whales.
The dude said “Well it’s 2009 now, etc etc……..”
I want to say to Stuart (that’s his name, right, that bald-headed Aussie?) – well, look man, you’re saying that a culture must move on now that it’s such and such a time, from the culture to stop doing the indigenous thing that it had been doing for centuries, right?
So why don’t the Australians LEAVE the land and give it back to the Aborigines? It’s 2009 now, so time has come to give it back, mmmmmmmmmmmmK?
So why don’t all the modern-day Aussies who are not indigenous, who were IMPORTED to that land, LEAVE? Go back to Europe, to England, to Ireland, to wherever else you came from, and leave the Aborigines alone to live the lives they want to live, with the Earth, like THEY ALWAYS HAVE?
Two responses:
1. The Brits don’t want the Aussies back.
2. Surely the argument works the other way as well – the abos can adjust and move on….
I’m Australian, and I was embarrassed by the behaviour of the Australians in that clip. They were rude and culturally insensitive, and their arguments were illogical and factually dubious. Unfortunately, they came across as pushy, stupid and perhaps even a little bit racist. We’re not all like that!
I agreed with the French and older English speakers. I’ve eaten pork, beef, chicken, kangaroo, crocodile, and something that to this day I don’t even know what it was! (That was in Ikebukuro.) As long as an animal isn’t endangered and is being harvested sustainably, then I have no problem with people eating it. If I didn’t believe that, then I’d become a vegetarian rather than a hypocrite.
To be fair, if I was an ugly bald middle-aged man, I’d probably be angry and argue a lot too.
Japan has only itself to blame for this anti whale hysteria.The truth of the matter is Japan is terrible in the negotiation process. Norway, Iceland clearly objected the IWC in the early 90s or late 80s when whaling countries agreed to stop hunting whales until there was more scientific data. That was the compromise in 1982. After the data was found Japan still did not have guts like Norway and Iceland. Now that is back firing. Now they are still doing ” scientific research” while Norway does what it wants due to having back bone in the 80s and 90s. Norwegians hunt whales in style. Japan does not. I myself think whales are ugly and eat too many fish. They just float around making squeeky sounds. Throw a harpoon at them, the gold of the ocean. One whale can feed an entire community. Whales are gods in my way and not the Australian.
From Norway with love.
I think Norway and Iceland can get away with it (as indicated in the above comment) not because of “backbone”. Rather, there is a definite (racist) component to the vitriolic reaction against the Japanese whaling activities.
If the Japanese suddenly developed a “backbone” and told the anti-whaling world to “stuff it” (like the Norwegians and Icelanders have done), they’d get vilified even more.
“Despicable Japs” can’t turn into “Cool Vikings” overnight!
I agree Tully, there’s definitely some racism there. I think the other issue is that nobody cares about Norway and Iceland.
Without a doubt racism cannot be counted out at all here. Again, Japan does have a ’special’ stigma attached to it because of world war 2, that colors the opinions of many around the world. Not only that, but also because of Japan’s rise to world economic power, that also feeds the resentment of many. If Japan was a nobody nation these days, was never an economic power but was just a shell of a third world country, perhaps some of this anger and vitriol directed at Japan for whaling or any other issues may not have been that big of a deal.
But without a doubt racism has a lot to do with it, and Japan just seems to attract a lot of controversy over anything because of its war past and in addition to that people resent Japan’s economic power.
Actually, Iceland left IWC in protest and being such a small country they suffered heavy financial consequences because of it. The whale ban was supposed to be reevaluated and IWC Scientific Committee did reevaluate after finding data on whale stocks. Despite IWC Scientific Committee concluding that whales could be hunted anti whale IWC counties voted against whaling disregarding science and contempt for other cultures. The leader of IWC Scientific Committee an English man which I forget the name then resigned in protest. Norway and Iceland then filed a formal complaint while Japan didn´t. This is why Norway can hunt commercially today and Japan not. However, when Norway resumed commercial whaling in the early 90s. Believe me, entire Europe was furious. Clinton even talked about a Norwegian boycott. But Norway still had the guts to not bend over like Japan has. Norway being a much smaller country than Japan is, is much more vunerable to outside pressure but you wouldnt think that by looking at the incompetent coward Japanese. Instead Japan plays the victim role and yell out racism. How pathetic.
The Australians on the panel don’t seem to understand anything about IWC treaty. Japan does whaling only what IWC agreements allow. If they are against whaling, they should first talk to IWC not Japan.
Extremist anti-whaling people believe that sneaky Japanese are cheating IWC and the world. And they are also afraid that greedy Japanese are seeking a chance for starting commercial whaling legally and then finally will eat up all whales. A story nicely fit into so-called “Yellow Peril”. Many people will be bored on that soon and Chinese will be targeted someday for some reason. Endure until that.
i had whale last time i was in japan. very meaty…red like steak and rich. not bad. expensive, about 3500 yen for a plate of 6 slices.
Japan never objected to the 82 compromise unlike Iceland and Norway. Believe me a such a small country like Iceland is much more vunerable than Japan yet still Japan were cowrards. Australia on the other hand is stupid. Even dumber than Americans.
Many of us are, it’s true.
In America, in Alaska there are Eskimo’s that are allowed to hunt seals and whales, because of there heritage. They are only allowed by law to hunt by boat and a harpoon. The harpoon can only be like the ones there ancestors used. It’s suppose to prevent over hunting. No one has a problem with it. It’s done fairly humanly and there are no signs of over fishing. I think this in itself is a fantastic way this issue should be handled. Also there are video’s on the Eskimo’s preforming this hunt. It’s not as vicious and frightening as how the Denmark’s, Icelandic’s, and the Japanese have chosen to slaughter the sea life.
I don’t think they’re cute (the whales – not the japanese), and perhaps they’re intelligent (once again the whales) but if so why in 200+ years haven’t they learned to avoid the fishing fleets, so it’s the sustainability part that I take issue to.
First off, it’s hardly a universal opinion among people who study such things. Second, the ocean is a big mostly unknown place. Sustainability for any species has numerous variables – any of which when changed can tip the balance of the equation. Since the sustainability part is made up of mostly “best guesses” and limited sample sets – it seems like wonky science to me to blatantly say “no worries – there’s plenty more where that came from”.
So I have a hard time agreeing that the risk of driving a species to extinction is worth keeping a so called tradition alive (because lets face it – it has nothing to do with tradition or culture and everything to do with commercial gain).
So your argument is:
The absence of evidence that Japanese whaling is causing whale populations to decline is evidence that Japanese whaling is causing whale populations to decline.
Even with minke whale populations estimated at between 300,000 and 700,000, we must assume that there’s a big risk that Japanese whalers killing one or two thousand whales a year is “driving the species to extinction”?
Why don’t you go to the IWC web site and find out about whale populations before you argue about something you know nothing about. In 1985 more than half the remaining southern humpback whales were killed [well above the quota set by the IWC] mainly by by the Russians -helped by one other little country.
Why don’t you also find out how many whales Japan has killed since the 1986 zero quota and how many they killed prior to the 1986 zero quota- don’t bother the first is over 20,000 the second is a handfull. Research -bullshit-it’s commercial whaling and that is illegal and a fact.
Please do enlighten us with actual links to the pages or PDFs containing the numbers and tables to back up your claims.
All I can find is a table on the IWC site that says the humpback whale population in the southern hemisphere has increased over the past few decades, but nothing that says that “more than half the remianing were killed”.
Whale Population Estimates
http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm
That, and a table showing the number of catches under the contentious scientific permit, which shows mainly Japan whaling for almost entirely non-threatened species, but does not mention the humpback anywhere.
Catches taken: Under Scientific Permit
http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/table_permit.htm
Is there something I’m missing?
I think it’s funny that you point to the IWC web site because the purpose of that organization is to improve the whaling industry. Right now there is a temporary moratorium on whaling, but straight from the IWC page:
Your definition of illegal differs from mine because usually there have to be laws involved before something can be considered illegal. Perhaps you’d rather have Japan drop out of the IWC and start full-scale whaling operations?
Japan agreed to the moratorium on conditions that the moratorium would be reevaluated after getting more data about the various whale stocks. Japan and Norway showed good will. They agreed to stop hunting whales for food until there was more scientific data. After the scientific findings the IWC Scientific Committee concluded that whales could be hunted STILL Australia voted against. Honest countries respect agreements, Australia by not respecting science and their agreements makes them emotional simple liars. If their only goal is to make life as hard as possible to whaling countries simply because they do not have a whaling culture what a backward country Australia is. Narrow minded.
I’m from Australia, and I love Japan.
Personally I don’t like the idea of hunting whales and dolphins but that’s only because I don’t like animals being killed for meat in general. I think people throwing racist comments at Japan is a bit extreme though.
In queensland we have whales in our oceans all the time, they’re a tourist attraction and considered our neighbours. I guess Australians are protective of them because they mean so much to us here.
In Nara city we have deers in our park all the time, they’re a tourist attraction and considered our neighbours. I guess Japanese are not protective of them while they mean so much to us there.
We’ll go back to the debate of whale’s intelligence, cuteness, uniqueness, danger of extinction, contribution to the tourism industry, and whatever else?
I do not intend to attack people who are not objecting against small-scale whaling inherited from their ancestors in a small rural town somewhere in the world. But could someone explain me why so many protectors of whales are accusing harshly the Japanese as murderous whale killers? Am I just too nervous?
I used the Eskimo’s as a useful way to hunt whales and sea life, and still preserve the populations. I didn’t use it to say that this is my way or no way. I don’t even live in Alaska! So quit jumping to conclusions! I think comprise is the easiest way to a solution. I don’t think that Japan should have to stop whale hunting, but I also think they need to stop in the manner that they are doing it. It’s too commercialized and fast. It’s depleting the sea life, because the sea life hasn’t a chance to breed and catch up in numbers. I don’t give a diddly squat what color or race or whatever they look like Japanese just like everyone else are human beings and everyone is responsible there is no other way around it! Everyone is B*tching but no one wants to come up with solutions, in turn makes you the problem.
That guy really damaged the anti-whaling arguement. What a shame. If only he concentrated on intelligent/rational points; instead he just emphasised the emotional, irrational foreigner stereotype…
The science isn’t there (http://tombouquet.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/results-minke-blubber-decreasing/) and it’s a waste of money for what?
The Japanese woman was really intelligent and made some great points, but why maintain a part of a culture that serves no purpose for the vast majority of Japanese people? Western countries also had a culture of whaling, but in this day and age it is confined to history.
Also to echo the point of Milan above, commercial fishing and the depletion of the ocean’s resources is probably an equally if not more important issue. The movie ‘End of the Line’ is an excellent account of this problem, and doesn’t single out the Japanese; indeed we are all complicit.
http://endoftheline.com/
Do you demand monolithic dietary habits to all Japanese people? Different peoples living in defferent regions naturally shoud have different dietary habits. If you insist that everyone should abolish a part of their culture just because of it being “a part of a culture that serves no purpose for the vast majority of people”, then a huge number of cultural habits will become extinct. I think you are standing on the ground where whaling is absolute evil, otherwise your argument is completely pointless.
Do you demand monolithic dietary habits to Japanese people? Different peoples living in different regions naturally should have different dietary habits. If you insist that everyone should abolish a part of their culture just because of it being “a culture that serves no purpose for the vast majority of people”, then a huge number of traditions and cultures will become extinct. I think you are talking with the assumption that whaling is absolutely wrong.
Needless to say, pro-whaling people also want to avoid the depletion of the ocean’s resources. They are caring the sustainability of whaling too. If it is proven that sustainable whaling is impossible, then whaling must be prohibited.
Sorry, perhaps my phrasing was misleading – I’m not advocating the abolishment of culture because it has no purpose; I think this PART of Japanese culture (if it is that – did the Japanese ever travel to Antarctica before the 20th century?) has no place in the modern world because it is being cruel for no reason – are you suggesting animals should just be killed in the name of cultural tradition? Many cruel “traditions” have been banned globally and I like to think most human beings agree this is a good thing. Yes I am falling into the realms of hypocrisy because meat production the world over is cruel, but as much as I hate to say it, there is unfortunately a demand for meat. Cattle etc can be farmed/controlled and hopefully our meat consumption will decrease and/or farming techniques will become more humane (if that is possible).
In the meantime WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF WHALING? Who gains what? In a country like Japan, jobs is not a good answer – in fact whaling does not even make economic good sense.
As for the “sustainability” of whaling: what does that mean? There is none. There is no consensus on whale population numbers so how can it possibly be sustainable to treat cetaceans as a food source? Some species may be endangered; others numerous, but we have no way of controlling these populations other than maintaining clean oceans for all life – something that isn’t happening. The “scientific program” does not help with this – considering the lack of science and the huge number of whales killed, it is a failure and therefore serves no purpose. (Reports and findings published within Japan and the Institute of Cetacean Research lack international peer review.) There is also no evidence to suggest whaling can increase fish stocks – the loss of resources to whales/cetaceans is not even comparable to commercial overfishing and environmental effects. MAFF should concentrate on this instead of persisting in the killing of whales in the name of science or as a food source for which there is no demand.
Perhaps you will never accept this arguement as you see no problems with killing whales, whatever the reason, even if there isn’t one. “Whales exist so we should eat them – the same as cows, fish, chickens etc.” Unfortunately I don’t know what to say to that.
PS. I’ve just looked back over the comments: why is this always turned into an issue of race?? I don’t get it. I love Japan – I have great friends there and hold a lifelong interest in the country, but I don’t agree with their whaling project. Of course there are a lot of idiots out there, but Japanophiles seem to concentrate on them rather than the issue at hand… Isn’t that missing the point??
Stuart-O is a wanker if I ever saw one!
Albert (Smith) in this video isn’t Minna no Nihongo’s Mike Miller?
Japan’s continued and expanded program of scientific whaling is inconsistent with its obligations under the Law of the Sea Convention, the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling Convention, the Convention on the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources (CCAMLR), and the
Convention on Biological Diversity to protect and preserve the marine environment, to protect rare and fragile ecosystems and endangered species, to prepare environmental impact assessments when changes to the marine environment are likely to be caused by its activities, and to refrain from claiming resources under the guise of marine scientific research. This program is not legitimately “scientific” because it has not been peer-reviewed and does not have precise quantifiable goals. It is inconsistent with Japan’s obligations under the Convention on Biological Diversity because reduces the sustainability of whale species and has “adverse impacts on biological diversity.” It is unquestionably an abuse of right because it invokes Article VIII of the Whaling Convention in a manner
that certainly was unanticipated by the framers of the Convention and has been repeatedly condemned by the majority of the other contracting parties to the Convention.
Japan’s actions can be challenged by concerned states in the International Court of Justice or through the dispute resolution procedures of the Law of the Sea
Convention and the conciliation procedures of the Convention on Biological Diversity.
Plus a few other abnormailties.
Forget racism, domestic animals, etc etc, face the fact that what Japan is doing is against everything it has agreed to. Dishonourable is a word that comes to mind.