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Update: 74-year-old American tourist detained for carrying pocket knife

About a month has passed since the Japan Times ran a letter about an elderly American tourist who was detained for 10 days because he had a pocket knife on his person when he asked Japanese police for directions. They’ve finally managed to publish an article about the incident.

Unfortunately, they failed to get much meaningful information from the police or the US embassy. This means that most the details reported in the article are little more than a rephrasing of the allegations Brian Hedge made in his original letter to the Japan Times/Debito.org. There is a confirmation about the detention actually having taken place, but what exactly happened before the detention remains unclear.

They did, however, get a statement from police about the length of the knife blade (anything over 5.5 cm/2.2 inches is illegal):

One Shinjuku Police Station officer involved in turning the tourist over to prosecutors told The Japan Times the arresting officer’s official crime report noted the blade was 8.6 cm long.

But the tourist’s son, who later responded to an inquiry from The Japan Times, claimed the blade’s cutting edge was only 5 cm long, although it had an additional serrated edge that, he argued, cannot slash anything.

And here’s an interesting statement from lawyers:

Lawyers also criticized the officer for asking, “Do you have a knife?” in response to the tourist’s inquiry about directions to the store.

“Technically, it is not illegal for the officer to ask the question, but it was bizarre,” Suga said.

Being a foreigner may have led police to ask the question because Shinjuku is also home to the Kabukicho red light district, which attracts a plethora of shady characters, including foreigners, the two lawyers said.

Read the full article here.

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38 comments - What do you think? Posted by James - August 26, 2009 at 11:05 am

Categories: Foreigners in Japan Tags:

Daz

I hadn’t read about this,but it doesn’t surprise me.
He should have replied by asking the JCop ‘Do you have a brain?’
What a load of numpties they are.Did he buy the knife after entering Japan? I have never been in the habit of carrying knives,but for some people it seems as though it is second-nature.
LB

Methinks the son is still missing part of the point: the law does not say “cutting edge no longer than 5.5 cm” it says “blade length no longer than 5.5 cm”. If the blade has 5 cm straight cutting edge followed by 3.6 cm of serrated edge, then it is 8.6 cm long, not “5″. And what is this about the serrated part not being able to slash anything? Excuse me? Serrated blades slash very nicely, thank you, sometimes even better than straight edges. There is a reason why steak knives are serrated, and it isn’t for looks.

Regardless, in Japan you don’t just wander around with a knife, no matter if the blade is under or over 5 cm. You are supposed to have a reason for carrying a knife, and “keychain/watch fob/accessory/netsuke” is not a “reason”.

All of that said, 10 days is ridiculous. I believe Brian Hedge said part of the problem was that the police wanted the man to sign the usual “I’m sorry I screwed up, but I have reflected on what I have done and won’t do it again” but he wouldn’t. If he had, he may well have been released the same day or perhaps the next day. Too bad the Japan Times did not clarify this, it might make the actual circumstances behind why the man was held for 10 days clearer.
stevicus

Basically, the point to keep in mind is that afaik unless you are arrested, the cops can ask you to do just about anything, *but you don’t have to do it*. The only thing you have to do is show the registration card. Come to the Koban? Politely decline. Piss in a cup? Politely decline. Asked about what you are carrying? Politely decline to answer.

Obviously we can’t expect a tourist to know this, but anyone reading this blog should…

ponta

I’m not sure if that’s the best way.
Sometimes that might make the police more suspicious and might make things worse. Sometimes it is the best to answer honestly and politely. And it seems these things happen only in special places such as shibuya/roppongi/kabukicho where crime rates are high and/or in special times when a big international event is taking place.

If you are detained, ask to call the lawyer or the embassy.
If you are a resident and frequently stopped by the police, work with the local people and the police to prevent it.
Confronting the police is not always the best way.

stevicus

I understand what you mean. I guess I should have said you “have the right to” politely…, but was typing quickly.

Now of course, just because you have the right to do so, doesn’t mean it would be the smartest course of action.

You would be basically forcing the cops to either arrest you or let you go. I do not know which is more likely to happen.

In the case of those guys in Roppongi that failed an on the stop UA, it would have been best for them to decline the test, but I am assuming they didn’t know they could do that. If they were then arrested and tested, it would be very interesting to see how the whole thing would have played out in court, which would likely depend on the believability (to the lay judges) of the justification for arrest.

ponta

FYI

違法捜査裁判：「任意捜査の範囲を逸脱」と都に賠償命令

　公務執行妨害罪などに問われ無罪が確定した横浜市の男性が、警視庁の違法な逮捕で精神的苦痛を被ったとして、東京都に約９４０万円の賠償を求めた訴訟の判決で、東京地裁は２２日、９７万円の支払いを命じた。畠山稔裁判長は「２時間を超える職務質問をしており、任意捜査で許される範囲を逸脱している」と逮捕手続きを違法と判断した。

　判決によると、男性は０６年３月、世田谷区の路上で３時間半にわたる職務質問を受け、逃走しようと車を発進させてドアミラーを警察官にぶつけたうえ、トランク内に大麻を持っていたとして、公務執行妨害と大麻取締法違反の疑いで現行犯逮捕された。しかし、東京地裁は同１０月、「男性にぶつける故意はなく、公務執行妨害罪は成立しない。逮捕手続きが違法なため、見つかった大麻にも証拠能力はない」と無罪判決を言い渡し、２審で確定した。【伊藤一郎】
毎日新聞　2009年7月22日

Nontheless, I’d still suggest to comply with the police if he/she had nothing to hide, considering the time and troubles it might take if she/he declined. Or rather, I’d suggest not to go to the places where crimes rates are high.
stevicus

Thanks for the story. The part about bumping the cop with the mirror sounds vaguely familiar. Anyway, I no longer have to wonder how it would have played out.

I do agree with you that if you are doing nothing wrong, it is best to cooperate, but I am sure you also realize that this attitude can be dangerous in the long run… perhaps.

“If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.”

I sat in awe at what the Bush administration wanted to do/did do with respect to eavesdropping, border searches of electronics, etc.
ponta

Thanks.
I don’t think you have nothing to fear even if you have nothing to hide, but I think I should calculate the risk and troubles it might cause.

If you have nothing to hide, still it is possible that the test is invalid, but that possibility is quite low.
If you take the test, it won’t take time.
If you decline, that makes the police more suspicious because this kind of things only happen in a very specific circumstance. That might make the police ask more questions and in an extreme case they might arrest you for obstructing the official business or disorderly conduct or whatever by nitpicking you. You might be released later, but that is a waste of time.
And I doubt American citizens complying with the police in a case like this have caused the authority to “do with respect to eavesdropping, border searches of electronics, etc”.

That’s my evaluation and I know different people will make different calculations.
And you are right. People have the right to decline and I respect their choice.

Nicklas W bjurman

In the long run if you do not say no, I can not allow such intrusion onto my person by you as you are doing nothing but fishing for warm bodies to put in cold cells. The intrusiveness and violence will escalate, just look at how it is in the states where the police has gone pretty much rouge much I think is because people obediently goes along to get along.

ponta

I don’t go so much as to describe the act of asking for, say, the urine test on a voluntary base in a very specific circumstance as intrusive and violent.
And I am curious to know whether it is true that ①in the U.S. people obediently went along to get along and ②as a result ③the police has become more intrusive and violent.

Togu

Do you know the exact article? Would you clarify this?

pixel_bomber

Wow, what a way to spend your trip to Japan. I assume every person that approaches that koban gets asked if they have a knife? And does everyone really spend 10 days in jail and then not even be charged?
I really have no idea but is this really a serious crime in Japan? It seems like the sort of thing you would get a citation for and have your knife confiscated or something. If he had been tried and convicted of a crime what would the penalty be? Because 10 days in jail would seem harsh.
I’m usually willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I think in this case this poor guy got some really “special” treatment for whatever reason. Some details about what happened and what was said at the time of arrest would be great to hear. I would like to believe that somehow this treatment was justified but I’m willing to bet he just approached the wrong cop on a bad day. Either way I’m sure this is great publicity for tourism.
Dave

Japan has laws against carrying concealed weapons. The cop asked him if he had a knife (kind of a weird thing to ask, but whatever). The guy revealed that he had a concealed weapon and possessing that weapon violated the law. Guy gets arrested.

Seems pretty clear-cut. Know the laws of the country you visit and abide by them, or risk getting arrested for breaking the law.

Personally, I think it’s a perfectly sensible law.

matt

You realise that a knife is more than a weapon? Its a tool, used for many many more things than just stabbing people?

But i suppose it CAN be used as a weapon, so everyone who ever goes to japan should assume they aren’t allowed to carry them. Assuming that everyone that ever leaves their country is a lawyer who speaks the native language and thus can “know the laws.” I mean, otherwise it’d be pretty difficult to become completely versed in a foriegn countrys particular laws just for a 14 day stay.

Of course since knives are illegal, I’m assuming the same logic gets applied to forks. And pencils/pens. And keys. And nail files. And skateboards. And anything else that could possibly be used to inflict harm on someone.

Perfectly sensible.

The Overthinker

“Perfectly sensible.”

Unlike your comment.

Yom

As long as that crazy knife wielding American psycho is no longer in the country, ill feel safer walking home at night
mitotourer

There were a lot of people commenting on this blog and others that straight up called this guy a liar. It would be nice to see an apology or two. Even the author of this blog said the story was fishy in his original post. Now, the Japan Times writes up a full story including interviews with the 74-year-old victim and a Japanese lawyer involved in the case that fully corroborates that the incident took place. Now we get this post, with more quibbling over irrelevant details.

The tourist did break a law. Ignorance of a law does not excuse acting in an illegal manner. However, the choice of what to do with someone who has unknowingly broken a foreign law is completely up to the officer. The police officer could have easliy confiscated the knife and let the man go, as the lawyer suggested and as has happened to other commentors on this story.

Legally, the tourist did wrong by breaking the law of the country he was in. Ethically, the Japanese legal system did wrong by incarcerating a man for 10 days who did not deserve such treatment.

LB

Well as one of the skeptics allow me to say that yes, I am convinced it did happen. However, considering how badly Brian Hedge managed to screw up the details, and kept changing those details as he (apparently) realized they were wrong, and getting them wrong again in the new versions, I still think a very healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.

Some of the “irrelevant details” people are “quibbling” over are very relevant. The “whoops, I was an idiot, sorry” form I mentioned earlier (which is effectively the same as the citation pixel_bomber mentions) may be the crux of the reasoning behind the 10-day all-expenses-paid stay at the Hotel Folsom this gentleman got. Brian Hedge did say his understanding, based on what the son supposedly told him, was the cops kept trying to get him to sign the form and he kept refusing. Now, granted, it is never, ever a good idea to sign a legal paper without knowing what it said. However surely sometime within 10 days someone – a lawyer, the son, the Embassy rep who visited – could have convinced him that it was OK to sign a piece of paper saying he was wrong and sorry about the whole mess.

Assuming that this was the reason the police kept holding him right up until the deadline that they had to either formally charge him or else release him, I am not sure we can entirely blame the police. If indeed they were providing a get-out-of-jail-free card, and this gentleman was not taking it, then he is as much to blame as the police.

That was one point I was really, really hoping the JT article would clarify. But they disappointed yet again.

pixel_bomber

it is never, ever a good idea to sign a legal paper without knowing what it said. However surely sometime within 10 days someone – a lawyer, the son, the Embassy rep who visited – could have convinced him that it was OK to sign a piece of paper saying he was wrong and sorry about the whole mess.

Assuming that this was the reason the police kept holding him right up until the deadline that they had to either formally charge him or else release him, I am not sure we can entirely blame the police. If indeed they were providing a get-out-of-jail-free card, and this gentleman was not taking it, then he is as much to blame as the police.

I agree that it would always be bad to sign something you do not understand. Obviously during the 10 days no one made it clear to him that this was the thing to do. But is it really the proper thing to do? Would admitting guilt give you a criminal record? As it is he was released and not convicted of anything. I know I would certainly be nervous about admitting guilt especially if my lawyer was telling me I should never have been arrested. Again we don’t really know any details here so its hard to speculate. Either the guy did not sign out of ignorance, or he did not sign because he did not believe he was guilty. Hopefully we will hear more later.

I’m still curious to know if his lawyers statements are fact. That he should never have been arrested and should have only been questioned and had his knife confiscated. I seem to recall a little while after the stabbings in Akihabara the police randomly questioned people and ending up confiscating pocket knives that were against the law. I never heard of any arrests during that time so it makes me believe that maybe the lawyer is telling the truth.

I’m putting my money on the cop was an a-hole for now based on what I’ve heard.

Claytonian

I’m the author of the original post (not this followup, which is by James). I make no appologies for being critical of the original information we had on this incident; journalistic scepticism is my job. On the other hand, I also expressed that it seemed like a plausible event, but once again, we had no proof at that time.
ponta

I think we need much more detatils to fill out.
Japan Times comfirmed that this gentleman was detained for 10 days for carrying an illegal knife but “neither police nor the embassy would confirm” another story of his son.
His lawyer would not say,”the law is law, this gentleman deserved it.” The lawyer is there to defend his client. He cannot tell a lie but he does not have to tell the whole story.

Looking at “Have your say”, the readers raise some good points.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20090825hs.html
HANS BRINCKMANN　says

・・・・
the behavior of the police officers at the Shinjuku police box must surely be considered an exception. After all, there hardly is a country where one feels more safe on the streets than Japan・・・・

PHILIP ZALESKIN, who was stopped as a tourist while shopping in Akihabara at the time of this story , says

・・・・
I indicated to the officers that I actually did have a knife, and displayed the tool to them. I was courteously informed that carrying a knife of any type or size anywhere in Japan was not permitted. I had no idea.

I offered the officers the small tool, explaining that I had no real attachment to the thing, nor any significant investment in it, as it was purchased for about $4.99 at Wal Mart. Again, in a very courteous manner, the officer simply reiterated the violation, refused to take the tool, and told me to put it in my pocket until I was back in Niigata, put it my suitcase once I was there, and, not remove it until I had cleared Japanese airspace.・・・・

The Japanese police “can” be nasty, but that’s more like the Japanese police I know.
And I am with Alex, who who says,

I cannot even imagine that a police officer would ask someone “Do you have a pocket knife?” in response to the question “Where is Kinokuniya?”

And yes I am still waiting for the full story too.

flonk

yeah, gotta keep those 74 year old freaks off the street…

the main flaw with this whole affair is right in this quote:

“The problem is that prosecutors and judges do not think independently. They don’t question what police bring them,” …”The judicial procedure is often automatic, and of course can be unfair to suspects.”.”
stevicus

love the spam filter. I feeling I’m rolling the dice instead of posting a comment

Anyways, as I tried to say, I agree with you and thanks for the story – I think I remember hearing something about this now.

But the “nothing to hide nothing to fear” line of thought can be potentially dangerous in the long run. perhaps…

Would be nice if this was a world where the police would not try to operate beyond their powers.
Canadian

Why in the world would you carry a pocket knife in Asia in the first place?

pixel_bomber

Well he is 74 years old and a small pocket knife was standard equipment on my grandfather. They use them for things like opening letters or packages or fixing that little screw on your glasses and probably a million other things. I’m pretty sure he didn’t plan a stabbing rampage with a tiny tool like that. As it’s been already stated he clearly didn’t know it was against the law.
I know nothing about the Japanese legal system but here is what his lawyer says in the article.

“I seriously doubt the man needed to be detained at all,” said lawyer Kazuharu Suga, who has been assigned to defend the American.

“Police should have confiscated the knife and released him after getting answers for why he came to Japan, where and how long he plans to stay in Japan and how he got the knife,” Suga said.

So assuming his lawyer is telling the truth then there must be something we are not hearing about. Or like I suggested earlier he just got the wrong cop at the wrong time. No matter how perfect anyone might believe Japan to be, I am willing to bet there are douchebag cops in every country in the world. So maybe this cop was an asshole and decided to have fun with this guy. Would be nice to at least hear an explanation from the arresting officer as to why he got such harsh treatment.

I can’t say I blame the guy for being reluctant to sign a document that he cannot read after being arrested for such a minor offense. I mean yea it’s probably the standard thing to do or whatever but how does he know that? For all he knew he could have been looking at a long prison sentence if he signed a document.

You can repeat the he “he broke the law” thing until you are blue in the face. But it looks like he may not have gotten the type of treatment that he should have. Until we hear more details it certainly looks like these cops probably owe that poor guy an apology at least.

Popo

Well that’s better than being kept in Guantanamo for no reason except your religion without charge or trial and for unlimited time while being tortured to death eventually.
Level3

I carry a Swiss Army Knife every day.
I use it almost every day to open boxes, fix things, and jimmy open door locks during my nightly burgling sprees…OOPS, did I admit that?!?!?

A simple defense is there a friggin Victorinox shop in Osaka.
They do not sell their knives to be put on display on a shelf in a glass box in your home. If you’re not going to carry it, there’s no point in owning it, and no point in them being sold.

If you arrest me for having the perfectly legal knife, you’d better close down that shop and make Swiss Army Knife sales illegal in Japan.
Even though we can still buy giant kitchen knives in any 100 yen across the country.

The law clearly states that you can carry a knife “with good reason”, but doesn’t define what “good reason” is.
Unfortunately, it means the cops can probably decide whatever definition they want. Rationally, if you say anything other than “I will stab people by the light of the full moon until the voices, THE VOICES stop!!!”
Then you aren’t breaking the law.

I’m glad this old guy was stubborn enough to not sign a friggin confession for such a petty “crime”, especially since, as an American, he was probably thinking that certain rights against search without a warrant nor just cause should be universal in any civilized country with basic human rights. That he would win such a case if it went to trial. And that a “justice” system and police that try to force you to sign a confession should be viewed with suspicion at the very least.

Japan’s jsutice system is not so civilized. At least the lay judge system is a step in the right direction. Next step, how about some accountability?
Kwyjibo

To all of you who say “He should have known the law, it’s his own fault”.

Would you be saying the same thing if a 74 year old Japanese man was arrested and thrown in jail for drinking a beer in public while on vacation in the US? Would you be telling the outraged Japanese public they should shut up and follow the law in other countries? Or would you agree that it’s an overreaction on the part of the police and never should have happened?

On a train in Italy I saw a Japanese family being fined for not having stamped their ticket. Guess it’s entirely their fault for not knowing all the rules, right?

butakun

Yes, it’s entirely their fault and I would not be outraged.

pixel_bomber

You should be outraged.
The normal penalty for drinking in public is usually a citation/fine. He would not be arrested unless he was disorderly or some other offense happened. And spending 10 days in jail for it? Well he would probably end a little richer after his lawsuit.

The family on the train being fined is a different matter. The fine is simply there to create revenue, I assume they were not arrested or anything.

No one is debating a law was broken. But it seems like the way it was handled by the Japanese police might be very unusual.

Kwyjibo

Actually, the police can put you in “civil protective custody” for 3 days. But this type of attitude is typical of Japanese – obey every rule to the letter without exception and never question anything. And then get surprised by the resulting massive suicide and hikikomori rates.
ponta

new nihonjin-ron. very interesting.
butakun

LOL. Where did suicide and hikikomori come from?

The Overthinker

Actually yes it is their fault. I have been caught twice by those damnable European ticket validation things, but luckily both times I was able to get away with it, the first time as I was an obvious tourist and the second as I was able to prove I was a tourist by hauling out my copy of Chikyuu no Arukikata. The second time especially (this was a local train and I did not know I even needed to validate for local trains) I was very close to getting fined. But had I been fined I would have accepted it as the law, and am thankful that the conductors used their discretion.

Ditto the guy drinking in the US. I would of course also think the cop was a shithead, but realistically, ignorance of the law has never been an excuse.
LB

“Would you be saying the same thing if a 74 year old Japanese man was arrested and thrown in jail for drinking a beer in public while on vacation in the US?”

If it was against the law to drink alcohol on the street, and the penalty could involve a trip to the holding pen, then yes. I and any normal person would say the same thing.

“Would you be telling the outraged Japanese public they should shut up and follow the law in other countries?”

Oh man, this is a trick question, right? And the correct answer would be what – “If you are a tourist or foreigner local laws do not apply to you”? I thought extraterritoriality was a notion discredited back in the late 19th century! Of course you have to follow the local laws, buckwheat!

“Or would you agree that it’s an overreaction on the part of the police and never should have happened?”

You can probably guess my retort by now…

“On a train in Italy I saw a Japanese family being fined for not having stamped their ticket. Guess it’s entirely their fault for not knowing all the rules, right?”

And in your world it would not be their fault? What Utopian anything-goes planet did you just alight from?

Sly

Wow, policemen get bonus for that ? Sounds to me like they want to make beautiful statistics, that’s all…

If I buy a kitchen knife in kappabachi (tokyo) and carry it in my backpack to my hotel room, do I risk something ?

The Overthinker

No. No risk whatsoever. You are fully within your legal rights.
HOWEVER….
If you later take said kitchen knide out for a stroll to the local supermarket, you are in violation of the law.

stevicus

“And I am curious to know whether it is true that ①in the U.S. people obediently went along to get along and ②as a result ③the police has become more intrusive and violent.”

I’d say no. But as I said before I “shocked and awed” at what the Bush administration wanted to and did do, blatantly ignoring this:

Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Update: 74-year-old American tourist detained for carrying pocket knife

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