2. The Class A’s were tried for conspiracy, basically. Conspiracy to wage aggressive war – war being the means by which a state commits assault, robbery and murder.

3. I’m saying that within the Japanese government, from top to the local level, there is a tendency to minimize Japan’s war guilt for domestic audiences. This is at variance with the way history is acknowledged by Japanese government representatives outside Japan.

4. Yes, I’ve read some. Are we having a discussion/debate, or a contest about who’s read the most of which types of books?

5. Nihonjinron seem to be used to justify all manner of double standards, including Japanese imperialism, which is recast as “liberation”, even when it resulted in worse oppression and exploitation.

If you say that as a form of exceptionalism it is similar to American notions of “Manifest Destiny” and the “White Man’s Burden”, I agree. But again, we’re talking about Japan, not America.

6. Fine. I was using a common shorthand. Allow me to elaborate – The Japanese government seems institutionally reluctant to address certain historical facts. That seems to me to be in part due to political pressures, but also to an ingrained social tendency to regard Japanese exceptionalism (nihonjinron) as exculpatory as well as explanatory.

Obviously a nation of 100 million educated and sophisticated people will have 100 million perspectives, no two of which will be identical.

I really do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you want to say that Japanese soldiers during WW2 were fanatic because of Shintoism? Get real. They fought for their country. Suicide attacks were desperate measures to protect their own country, and were rational thing to do under extreme conditions. No religious fanaticism is involved there.

People go there to pray for the fallen soldiers. There is nothing fanatic about it.

Why, do you think, Japanese politicians visit that shrine? Every Japanese knows it is because they want the vote from WW2 veterans and surviving families. When they visit, veterans groups allot some vote for them. Their visits have no more meaning than that.

If you do not like Yasukuni, just leave it, for time will solve the problem. Yasukuni shrine is run by donations from veterans and surviving families of soldiers killed in the war. They are getting very old and rapidly decreasing in number. In 20 years or so, Yasukuni will run out of money. By the time, Japanese politicians will lose interest because their visit will bring no vote.

Fanaticism is to state that a man is a living God on earth, and do any kind of thing in the name of this man.

What happened in places like Nanking were unforgivable but it was war and there were Chinese soldiers masquerading as civilians there and urban combat is often brutal and ugly.

It’s not a personal insult, merely an observation.

1. That was an example of how silly your argument was, NOT an attempt at justification. And how can the Class A crims be “revered as heroes” if “Japanese youth [your term] are ignorant as to who they are and what they did”?
“Yakuzuni” is a typo, right? You’re not implying the Yakuza run Yasukuni or anything?

2. You missed my point entirely. The Class A crims were not tried for petty things like murder. That was for the other classes, and no one gets upset about them, ironically enough.

3. “I’m also aware that within Japan a different narrative is favored” Really? Favoured? Are you attempting to imply that this is the majority view, or are you merely referring to a very specific subset who might favour this? Are you claiming that most Japanese deny these, or that the Japanese government denies these, or that the LDP denies these, or who?

4. I am pretty sure that I have read more than you have. Again, do you claim to have actually read *any*?

5. My rebuttal stands until you can demonstrate that this is not just a minority position. You can find minority positions to support any view. Have you read 戦争論? Do you consider that a majority view? It certainly is a view, a pretty extreme one, but no one would never claim it represents the standard discourse.
“Nihonjinron are routinely invoked to justify everything from racism to restrictive trade tariffs” – but we are not talking about racism or restrictive trade tariffs. I am not denying Nihonjinron as such exists, I am denying that it is used “routinely” to whitewash the war. I can think of a few examples of it off-hand – about Japanese intestine lengths or the quality of Japanese snow vis-a-vis ‘foreign’ snow, but while these are exclusionist, they are not about superiority, but uniqueness.

6. “That doesn’t change the fact Japan is very reluctant to admit the truth to itself”
This sort of statement is precisely why I said you have no idea what you are talking about. First, your use of “Japan” as some form of anthropomorphic entity is problematic: are you referring to the people or the government? If the former, you are way off base; if the latter, are you referring to a small vocal minority or official government policy? Second, what are you basing this claim on? You seem to imply some sort of vast conspiracy whereby the Japanese government admits fault and apologises to the outside world, while all the time the Japanese are secretly denying to each other it was their fault at all. Well, if this is true, it must be very secret indeed, well hidden behind the works on 戦争責任 and Japan’s guilt and so on written in Japanese for Japanese audiences. But what really annoys me about your stance is that it ignores and/or belittles the massive volume of work and discourse in Japan among Japanese that deals with these issues in a very frank and detailed manner.

I’m neither Chinese nor Korean, nor am I influenced by the politicians of either when forming my perspectives.

I’m certain, based on the history and personalities of the time, that had Japan been victorious, there would have been no pretense of a trial for those considered enemies – they’d have simply been slaughtered.

As for your specific points:

1) Class A’s are included in Yakuzuni. If Japanese youth are ignorant as to who they are and what they did, it doesn’t matter. KKK talk is another form of tu quoque. We aren’t talking about America; we’re talking about Japan.

2) Assault, theft and murder were crimes when Japan started the Pacific War. They don’t lose that quality when committed by the Japanese government on an international level.

3) I am aware, yes. I’m also aware that within Japan a different narrative is favored, one in which Japan is a victim and its military actions are sanitized.

4)I know this from the controversies that attend to this topic inside and outside of Japan. I do not claim to have read every Japanese textbook. Have you?

5)Nonsense. Nihonjinron are routinely invoked to justify everything from racism to restrictive trade tariffs, as well as to whitewash Japanese actions in the war.

6)Sure Asian politicians make hay by bashing Japan, just as Japanese politicians do so by bashing the neighbors. That doesn’t change the fact Japan is very reluctant to admit the truth to itself, and that this reluctance makes statements made for foreign consumption suspect.

As an white American southerner myself, I look at white Republican politicians in the South with a very jaded eye. They are the spiritual heirs to the racist policies of the old South, and what they say in public and what they say among themselves are very different.

Sort of like Japanese politicians.

However you are right about the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal being Victor’s Justice. And there certainly is Nihonjinron, though it is merely tangential to what you think your main argument is.

1. …within Japan the architects of the Pacific War are revered as heroes
–About as relevant as claiming that “within the USA blacks are despised” by only looking at the KKK. I doubt your average Japanese could even name an “instigator” of the war aside from perhaps Tojo.

2. …when their trials and punishments are dismissed as “victor’s justice”
–This criticism is far from extreme, and certainly not limited to Japan. You will find it in Allied histories as well. The key issue is that Class A, crimes against peace, was not a crime when the war was begun.

3. …when the wholesale massacres of Chinese and others by the Japanese Army are denied or dismissed with tu quoque arguments
–See point 1. You are obviously unaware of the large amount of work done on Japanese war atrocities by Japanese historians, for a start.

4. …when Japanese textbooks give the impression that Japan was not the instigator of the war but a victim of it
–And you know this from actually having read these textbooks?

5. …when various (often ludicrous) Nihonjinron are invoked to claim the inherent superiority of the Japanese people
–See point 1 again.

6. …it shouldn’t surprise that neighboring peoples are not convinced of Japan’s contrition
–Certainly not when there is much political capital to be gained by bashing Japan, no.

Incidentally, let’s compare and contrast:
“Gov. Bob Riley signed a resolution Thursday expressing “profound regret” for Alabama’s role in slavery and apologizing for slavery’s wrongs and lingering effects.”

The Prime Minister of Japan, Nakasone: “Japan has profoundly regretted the unleashing of rampant ultra nationalism and militarism”

What an interesting similarity of words there. So does that mean that Alabama isn’t really sincere? Look, just go and read this list and then state in precise terms why you feel that none of them are sincere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

When within Japan the architects of the Pacific War are revered as heroes, when their trials and punishments are dismissed as “victor’s justice”, when the wholesale massacres of Chinese and others by the Japanese Army are denied or dismissed with tu quoque arguments, when Japanese textbooks give the impression that Japan was not the instigator of the war but a victim of it, when various (often ludicrous) Nihonjinron are invoked to claim the inherent superiority of the Japanese people, it shouldn’t surprise that neighboring peoples are not convinced of Japan’s contrition and willingness to be one among equals.

By the way, what do you mean by fanaticism?

I was not clear: to get over fanatacism means not to apologize again, means to stop going and honoring fallen souls at a shrine which is the symbol of the regime who caused all of that. A war memorial would be more appropriate and a concrete sign of good will rather than plenty of verbal apologies.
It is just like if Germans nowadays went to honor fallen souls of WWII at a nazi sanctuary or something.

Still, Korea and China are asking for more apologies.

This is enough. A peace treaty is an agreement of reconciliation.
You cannot punish a criminal twice for the same offence.

It’s interesting how most of those who chose to comment on the earlier post on Hiroshima to criticize American “war crimes” are so conspicuously silent when it comes to this issue.

True. Even after the enshrinement of Class A became public knowledge, the PM’s went on their usual visits (20+ times). All that changed in the summer of 1985…

It just took six years for China to figure out an “excuse” with a help from a certain media company.

But if some Japanese try to mourn their war dead at Yasukuni, then it becomes “controversial”( I admit that en-shrine of war criminals are controversial, but a shrine is not a grave.)

Like when Germans tried to mourn and remember the “vertriebenen” from the former East Prussia, it becomes “controversial” for Pols and Checks.

Hearsay? Nanking massacre? Are you a kind negationist who says Nazis were good, concentration camps never existed and so on?

It’s not an anachronistic hate. It’s a hate going on because of some Japanese politicians honoring the Imperialism of the past. The Yasukuni Shrine is the symbol of Japanese Imperialism after the WWII. In South Korea, people don’t honor the Korean royal family members who sold the country to Japan.

I’m happy that Hatoyama will make a secular facility for the WWII criminals. Why would you honor the war-era Japanese military and political leaders that were essentially subscribed to secular Western ideas of colonialism? It doesn’t make sense that they were enshrined to a religious facility in the first place.

Whatever “crimes” the Americans committed against the Japanese were in response to the Japanese crimes that started the Pacific War. It wasn’t America that sneaked up to Japanese territory like a thief in the night and attacked without warning, just like it wasn’t China that occupied Japan with the view to creating a colony based on racism and naked exploitation.

When Japan accepts its historical role as the instigator of imperialist war on its neighbors and murderer of millions of innocent people, then perhaps those neighbors will be less inclined to view the fate of the “Class A’s” as anything more than vastly insufficient punishment for the crimes of the entire Japanese nation.

Yes, I understand what you mean, and I think anyone’s opinion is welcome with decency. I’m merely stating an opinion also.

But you see, people are usually born into a value system, or faith and brought up in it. I’m afraid the average person is not so tolerant as to be questioned their very core of identity, especially by someone from a different cultural background and it can easily be taken as an insult.

What worries me is that many Japanese are getting more and more defensive about everything, which could turn into aggression at its worst, and that’s not a good sign. History tells us that people could easily fall into such political traps.

The issue is already complicated enough within the Japanese. So I wish people would leave these sensitive issues where it belongs, which is really in the hearts of the ordinary Japanese people.

And Shinto, like any religion, can do whatever its leaders say it can do.

You people don’t even understand that you’re simply falling for the political scheming of countries that stir an anachronistic hate as much as possible to try and gain political advantages from pressuring Japan.

Criminals among Japanese soldiers? Are you trying to say that all Japanese soldiers were criminals and as such those received a just punishment despite not being granted a fair trial? Despite being condemned over hearsay and often (as was demonstrated later) proof forged by the chinese government?

May I ask doctor? What kind of family ties are allowed by your rules? 1st generation, 2nd generation?

What is too much, is that such hate still exists despite those deaths.

I’m not Japanese and I have no family ties I know of to those enshrined in Yasukuni. But I have an opinion on Yasukuni after living many years in Japan, and I can’t see why I’m not welcome as long as my views are thoughtfully expressed. How about saying knee-jerk anti-Japanese sentiment isn’t welcome instead?

It’s an interesting facet of human psychology that when people criticize others, they are often in fact criticizing themselves.

And your authority for claiming this is?

I have no problem putting my hands together and praying for dead American soldiers in Arlington, or for those in Yasukuni, a dead toad, a buddha, mickey mouse doll, whatever. If I happened to be in a Islamic country I would follow their protocol.

What if your beloved son became a murderer and was hung? Maybe I would have him enshrined at a local shrine if they are willing, which I as a native here firmly believe would be the usual case if a true shinto priest resides there. It seems like a lot of you educated in the west who come here have your own “Modern and civil” world view that you think can be applied anywhere in the world, even by force or stealth and believe it to be the righteous thing to do. I’m sorry but it’s not defacto standard on earth just yet and I don’t think it needs to be.

If enough Japanese want another place to commemorate the war dead, it’s fine with me. It’s also up to Yasukuni shrine. It’s a purely domestic issue, inside the home. The bereaved families of ethnic koreans and taiwanese who fought on the Japanese side have a free choice now. If you’re not Japanese or have no family ties to those enshrined in Yasukuni, you’re not welcome in this issue.

Where and how you honour them does….

But Yasukuni was always a place to promote Imperialism: it is a shrine to honour those that died to serve the Emperor, not that died to protect the country. And putting in people who did not die in war but later in prison or were executed is a bit much too.

However slaughtering the population of Nanking, conducting medical experiments about freezing effects on living prisoners, using Korean women as comfort women, sacrifing Okinawa island to the war because different, well, yes the trail will set the just punishment, but those people are already in the category of criminals among Japanese soldiers.

Yes maybe I should study more some history but in the meantime you should stop watching too many anime and manga

It’s plans like Yukio Hatoyama’s that really shows what a sorry bunch of bleeding-heart liberals these Democrats are.

But hey, Japan too can have its own Kevin Rudd. Selling out to whatever the feel-good cause of the day is and bending over for communist China.

When i’ll see people going to the chinese, american, british or russian cemeteries demanding for the ones that committed (or that were accused to have committed) atrocities to be dug out, then the Yasukuni issue will have a resemblance of meaning.

Until then, maybe you should study some history before commenting on it.

Luckily for you, you had Asterix and Obelix…

The director and his crew went there and shown exactly what they wanted to show, conveniently leaving out, of course, all the 99.9% of normal people that go to the shrine to honor the dead normally like people from any country do to their war memorials and cemeteries.

Congratulations for falling for their political scheme, mate That’s exactly the reason why that film was made, in any case.

If you think those people are “scary” you might want to go look into the ultra-right wing nationalists in your own country, because you know, any and every country has them, and they are given the right to speak and to demonstrate in democratic countries.