At an embarrasingly slow pace for advanced and #2 ranked world economy, sure. I agree.

But it is also true there are still women who want to get married and quit job and take a traditional role or a role that is consistent with a traditional role to adopt the changing economic, cultural situations. I think we can’t simply blame them, saying they are backward, they are victims of discrimination. We also should listen to their voices.

I have never implied that such people are victims etc. Such people exist in US/EU/RoIW too. What would one learn from “listening to their voices” about lack of opportunities for other women who DO want more equality in workplace and have perhaps have more ambitions goals in workplace? Pls explain.

Some more orientalist propaganda for your analysis: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6788036.ece

— One of the longest-running discrimination cases in Japan concerns six women graduates. They were forced to work as secretaries and watch as men who joined the company at the same time with the same backgrounds went on to become managers. The case has run for 14 years

— Shintaro Ishihara, the Governor of Tokyo, once told a women’s magazine that women who had lived beyond their ability to produce children were of no use to society

— There are no female chief executives of Japan’s largest 225 companies listed in the Nikkei Index

— In one case of workplace discrimination in Japan it was found that a woman would have to work for 32 years at the same company to earn the same as a man who had been there for six years — if the two did exactly the same job

— Only 9.4 per cent of parliamentary seats are held by women — ranking Japan 131st in political participation out of 189 countries

— Only 2.5 per cent of professorial posts in science departments across national universities were occupied by women

The narrow topic of “being taught tea serving” is not the issue.

That is the title of the thread, and that is what most people here are talking about.And this is the context where your comment 2009-07-30 18:41:27 was made.
Look at Sam 2009-07-30 15:33:19 /Karina 2009-07-30 15:58:36 Haf
2009-07-30 17:53:45/Stereo 2009-07-30 16:15:59/M
2009-07-31 03:06:17/Nor-Cal Nikkei2009-07-31 13:42:40/etc.,
They all mention serving tea.
DC 2009-07-31 12:33:34 mentioned American corporate and social etiquette, And I and overthinker have been talking about serving tea.
Vox24 2009-07-30 19:46:58 also talked about serving tea, And you responded to it.
leitmotiv 2009-07-31 17:18:08 says “There is obvious gender discrimination described in the article,” And the article says
“The women, ・・・・・ were taught how to wear their hair, serve tea and choose their wardrobes according to the season,

Now who is obfuscating?

I understood your links just fine.

So do you read Japanese?

it highlights (at Nomura’s cost) some entrenched assumptions of gender roles in Japan corporate workplace that are – IMO – (1) not commensurate (to astonishing extent) with 2009 global POV for advanced and wealthy nation like Japan

Provided what the woman said is true and that male worker were not taught how to serve tea. I agree.
But we have no comment on them from Nomura’s side, that’s why I said you　were reading too much into the article.

And that is not what you said.

You said, “This is a fairly typical discriminatory and backwards Japanese office behavior towards women.”Here it is natural to interpret it as comparing it with other countries, and your citing the essay, without a reservation , that says “It seems that Japan is 30 years behind in the Western feminist movement,” reinforces my interpretation.

men are hired with the understanding of opportunities for management-track promotion; the majority of women are hired to serve tea, file documents, serve tea, make copies for the men, serve tea, endless photocopy, answer the phones, serve tea, and wash up the dishes from serving tea – with little or no expectation to advance in responsibility, regardless of ability.

Partially true but things are not so simple as you seem to assume.

There are cases where women are discriminated at the time of employment. I had a chat with a middle-aged businessman and asked if he hesitated to hire women and if so why. He said “yes” and explained that a maternity leave cost the company a lot. (BTW that was gaishikei company, and that is a gender discrimination.)

On the other hand, as I told you before, I know women with high rank in a company. They have no time to serve tea, make copies etc. And they are encouraged to do their job as men. They have male and female subordinates.
And some company hire women as a receptionist or a general clerk. Serving tea, and making copies are parts of their job.

FYI
雇用における男女差別
http://www.tuins.ac.jp/jm/kokusai/0502sotsuron/0502sotsuron/kaya04.htm

As for the promotion for business people who are assigned the same job, i suspect there are some discrimination.
But the facts are more complex than you seem to assume.

Traditionally, for instance, a nurse has been woman’s job. I think they get promoted equally as men.　Probably the same goes for a flight attendant, a caregiver, etc and Civil-Service employees are relatively free from discrimination.

So it is inaccurate to say that “the majority of women are hired, with little or no expectation to advance in responsibility, regardless of ability”

But of course there are other types of companies which hire men and women.
One of the problems, as the author in the essay you linked says, is that there are women who think they are supposed to quit job or they show no enthusiasm to move ahead.
Some women are willing to quit job after they get married.
There is an even word for it.”寿退社”
http://oshiete1.goo.ne.jp/qa1937351.html
Others may quit because there are some sort of social pressure.
And I am sure there are women who are willing to keep working and get promoted as men but discriminated and consequently paid less.

FYI
男女間の賃金格差レポート
http://www.mhlw.go.jp/bunya/koyoukintou/seisaku09/pdf/01.pdf

To sum up,

You revised your orientalist comment so that you might escape criticism.(That is okay as long as you will be more careful in the future.) But even in the revised version, you leave out the diversities, and disregard historical and cultural conditions.

The development of Orientalism embodies a ‘textual attitude’、which means that the discourse of Orientalism relies on images of the East and its inhabitants that are not derived from empirical evidence or experience but from other books.(before you wrongly guess, it is from “Edward Said: A Critical Introduction by Valerie Kennedy”)
Besides, as I quoted before,” …cultures …appear unified only to the synoptic gaze of colonizer, tourist essentialist theorist.”You look at the cases through the prism of your prejudice and ” and you see uniformity, you pick up some anecdotes and jump to the conclusion and consider it “typical” and evaluate it as “backward” and “discriminatory”.
The revised version is better in this respect, though.

I sincerely hope men and women will be free from social prejudice and pressure so that they can choose whatever they want and evaluated on the basis of merit, not by gender. And more and more women are getting married late because they think the marriage somehow get in the way of their career.
English media tend to look on the getting married late as reflecting the declining appeal of marriage especially among women as if to say they were victims of Japanese male-dominated society, but that is not entirely true. The unmarried rate has increased more among men than among women, and 87% of men and 90 % of women have intention to marry. Men hesitate to marry because they don’t think they have sufficient enough income to support family .
http://www8.cao.go.jp/shoushi/whitepaper/w-2007/19pdfhonpen/pdf/j1010200.pdf
One of the solutions would be to provide inexpensive day-care centers so that married men and woman can work while leaving the child.

Things are changing.

But it is also true there are still women who want to get married and quit job and take a traditional role or a role that is consistent with a traditional role to adopt the changing economic, cultural situations. I think we can’t simply blame them, saying they are backward, they are victims of discrimination. We also should listen to their voices.

The essay you linked does not say women are taught how to serve tea at the office. That is our topic…

There you go with obfuscation again. The narrow topic of “being taught tea serving” is not the issue. Nor is it the reason I posted the link above. The link above is a scenario (specifically for OLs) that is representative of the issues that I called typical discriminatory behavior in Japan workplace that I have seen personally, and too often. Her analysis on history of gender relations in JPN may or may not be shallow in your subjective opinion. I dont care, as this part is clearly irrelevant to discussion – which is your outrage at my observation.

For your own links about tea service to be relevant I would have written “Being taught to serve tea is a fairly typical discriminatory and backwards Japanese office behavior towards women.” But I did not. Nor do I believe such. Hell, I and my male colleagues also serve plenty of tea.

I understood your links just fine. But – to your apparent dissatisfaction – I did not reply “Thank you ponta – I have seen the error of my orientalist ways now because you have shown me YAHOO Answer comments and blogs of true native japanese peole’s opinion in their own language about tea service which I have – until now – ignored.” (Is that what you expect?) As noted above, the topic by itself is irrelevant and a straw man argument that is easy to refute. Moreover, I have mentioned already that my opinions, which I set forth (and which upset your “orientalism” sensibilities) have basis on my significant contact with Japanese people, including family members. I feel no need to reiterate it here – I just note your silliness in continuing to insist that I somehow “ignore voices of natives”. I do no such thing.

Try again.

Here, to help you, I’ll even spell out your target again – with less ambiguity so you can re-focus your righteous indignation. I noted that the Nomura article is not surprising in that it highlights (at Nomura’s cost) some entrenched assumptions of gender roles in Japan corporate workplace that are – IMO – (1) not commensurate (to astonishing extent) with 2009 global POV for advanced and wealthy nation like Japan and (2) not commensurate with 2009 POV of many Japanese (minimally, those of the plaintiffs in article). i.e., in large part, men are hired with the understanding of opportunities for management-track promotion; the majority of women are hired to serve tea, file documents, serve tea, make copies for the men, serve tea, endless photocopy, answer the phones, serve tea, and wash up the dishes from serving tea – with little or no expectation to advance in responsibility, regardless of ability. I say this because my own observations of many Japanese workplaces are almost exclusively consistent with the entrenched assumptions of gender role apparently on display in the article – as well as in the link describing one account of OL life I provided.

From 9 July The Economist “Nomura [has] has a huge distribution network in Japan, sees itself principally as an Asian version of Merrill Lynch. It funnels Japanese equity and debt to wealthy nationals, and does some M&A work.”

Is that precise enough for your exacting standards?

Why should they?

Um, because its the apparent intentions of Nomuras top management, as stated in the WSJ article?

But which ones can be described as typical?

The essay you linked does not say women are taught how to serve tea at the office. That is our topic, and that is the behavior you describe as typical and backward Japanese office behavior.
Let’s read what Japanese people say about serving tea at the office from my links.

Orientalists tend to ignore the voices of the natives.

Kimura observes that Japanese men go off and serve themselves.

Yahoo Answer.お茶くみは当然女性の仕事？
I used to serve tea to the customers, One day the boss said it is your job. Is serving tea a part of female worker’s job?

dontthinkjustfeelitさん says it depends on the customer. If the customer prefer a woman to a man then a woman should serve tea.
green_grossular_garnetさん says she goes off and serve tea to the customer but don’t serve tea to the boss and coworkers.
darudaru56さん says they discussed it and decided that men and women should serve tea, but looking at the clumsy way male workers serve tea, she decided to do it herself.
risecci220さん and ccrmmkさん says serving tea is a part of our job.
mamiho3001さん says there are workplaces where a subordinate, male or a female, serve tea and there are other places where women serve tea.
azu9212さん says it might be the boss feels happier when served tea by a woman rather than a man.
k_yoshi1952さん says if it is a part of your contract, it is your job. Might be better be served tea by a woman than by a man who are poor at serving tea.
o_p_andersonさん says if it is a part of your job, you should work on it just as other jobs.
kocauxoさん says serving tea, cleaning the office, photocopying a document are also parts of our job,especially when the company is small.
takuya_721113さん if the boss says it is your job, it is your job.
love_misatoさん says your boss is insensitive. At my office, subordinates, male or female, take turns to serve tea to the boss in the morning, That is the only time we server tea.
hijyosyudanさん says in Japan it is a custom for women to serve tea.

Is serving tea woman’s job?
お茶くみはオンナの仕事？
■ in a showroom for a new car, male workers serve tea.
At the office I used to work, we took turns, later it so happened that we make our own tea. Still later, the machine served tea.
◆It is odd that a women should serve tea. But many women share the idea.
■In my station there are two women. either of us serve tea. Male workers have to work at the holiday, We don’t. That is a good deal.
◆Every worker should make his/her own tea.
■At the other office I like, the boss hasn’t let women serve tea for 10 years..But he is hard on women as much as men.
etc.

leitmotiv,
I doubt if you can read Japanese.
Tell me, can you read Japanese?
And are you asking the question after reading these?

Now after all this comments by Japanese people, we still don’t know how it is working in practice in Japan and in U.S., do we?

Tell me which ones can be described as typical and on what facts you claimed it was backward.

You are exactly ignoring diversities, generalizing from your anecdote without checking facts, using preconceptions, describing it as backward.

It is safe to say you ARE an Orientalist.

Now let’s get back to the essay you gave.

The first part of Jean Forrest’s essay is a mostly speculation based on shallow understanding on history of Japanese women.
As the essay in my link says ”
the image of Yamato nadeshiko is not one that has existed since the beginning of Japanese history, but rather one that has been created in modern times.”

The rest of it says
(1)Young women showed no enthusiasm to move ahead, or to be in a position of more power and responsibility
(2)The pressure is intense to get married
(3) Not only do women who want to have a career have to fight the male dominated system, but she also has to contend with the majority of women who do not understand why she would choose a career instead of a family,

I think we can sum them up as saying social pressure from men as well as women exists for a woman to take a traditional female role. So far I can agree to some extent.
The author continues.

It seems that Japan is 30 years behind in the Western feminist movement,

Do you remember I once introduced the book ”Japan made in Japan”on the thread under “Nightclub hostesses make more money than office ladies”, in which a journalist and a feminist and anthropologist and such discuss the distortions of Japanese by English media.

http://www.ezipangu.org/japanese/navigation_j/nihonjin/emedia.html

Did you read that?

Charles Burressm a journalist, writes

page 49
Why these exaggerated fuss over Japanese women. One explanation could be that the role of Japanese women, according to American standard of gender equality is one area where American can say, “Ah see how backward Japan really is.A Washington Post on May 31th 1995, made the comparison explicit by saying women’s right movement for equal movement rights in Japan seem to lagging the United States about 15 years In respond, a Georgetown university professor of women’s studies, Margaret Stets wrote that American women face equal barrier and Post’s article serve to assuage American egos. “Once again” Setz says in a letter to the editor “reader can feel that American is superior to the rest of the world.

Matt Thorn, an anthropologist, says,

page 94
Z you mentioned that, in your own words, “simple minded feminists would be interested in this sort of article.
Matt Thorn
what I mean by that was this・・・・to them feminism is feminism in American context.・・・They transpose their thinking upon what they see・・・・I was a pretty militant feminist and activist.
・・・・American society has long held ideal of equality so we always maintain the appearance of equality ・・・・For examples men in an office will ask a woman to make a tea, that actually goes in the U.S.as well although it is coffee they are making.But in Japan sexist reality is not concealed by the little disguise, the little mask American use unconsciously.

Some people seem to love using the word “backward” but I am not yet to see how they have measured it.

“Nomura is trying hard to retain Lehman talent following acquisition”
Why should they? Those Lehman “talents” failed so miserably. What Nomura want is NOT those failed talents but their customer base. As soon as Nomura gets hold of the customers, it will kick out those good for nothing ex-Lehman employees.

Haven’t you experienced any corporate takeovers in financial industry?

I agree:

http://wrt-intertext.syr.edu/vi/forrest.html

But which ones can be described as typical? If one again and again sees and hears of situations that are consistent with OL scenario described in link – and sees and hears almost no cases refuting it – what should one think?

お茶くみは当然女性の仕事？
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1410344914

お茶くみはオンナの仕事？
http://www5.nkansai.ne.jp/users/drk/mayu/otya.html

And if someone wants to claim Japan is backward in this respect, we need the stats of other countries as well and examined them from various perspectives.

But my opinion is that since it is a fact that there is sex discrimination in employment etc,. it is more productive to discuss how to prevent some companies and graduate schools from hesitating to employ talented women who want to pursue their career just as men.

In any case, in my view, most Japanese don’t really care whether women serve tea or not, though some people consider women who serve tea voluntarily as 気が利く(thoughtful)
Incidentally I looked up　the word in a dictionary I’ve found the following.

For example, in the work place it’s said that “chakumi (serving coffee, tea and snacks to the other employees)” is women’s work, but now people are suddenly calling it sexual harassment.（例えば、職場で「お茶汲みは女の仕事」なんて男性が言おうものなら、今はたちまちセクハラ呼ばわりされる。）
Men look good if they pour their own coffee or tea, so they go off and serve themselves.（自分でお茶を入れる男の方が今はポイントが高いので、男性はむしろ進んでお茶を入れる。）
However, the moment a woman serves them, their face light up and they say, “That was sure nice of you.”（でも、女性がお茶を入れてあげた場合、「おっ気が利くね」と、男性達は途端に顔をほころばせる。）
http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E6%B0%97%E3%81%8C%E5%88%A9%E3%81%8F/UTF-8/?ref=ex&exp=YA07-029&dn=1887258&dk=JE&pg=1

To some extent, there are elements of the truth in the rest of her essay.

Well, you see, that’s the problem. I find discussions based on “what we think” even less fruitful than those based on anecdotes. What are the stats? Hard facts are the only way this topic will ever get anywhere.

1. Do all women serve tea? (No) Do a statistically significant majority of them serve tea rather than men?
2. Do younger women / newly emploed women serve tea?
3. Do younger men / newly employed men serve tea?
4. What are the social and corporate pressures or expectations on young women in the workplace?

These are (some of) the questions that need to be given fact-based answers. Govt. stats and research papers must have some answers, but in the little I have looked, I have not found anything very useful. So while I may not be of much use in finding facts, hopefully I can try and steer this little conversation away from pure mud-slinging.

(It’s often said that arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you’re still retarded. But in fact it’s even worse, as there are no judges and no prizes….)

Now if the question is whether Japanese women are expected to pursue their career in the same way men do. by and large the answer is no. A lot of women quit job after they get married or after they gave birth. But nowadays, woman cannot be afford to be housewives, so many of them do part time job like a store clerk　and a care worker. Are they expected to serve tea to the boss? No. The just do their job and leave to home.

Is there gender gap? —Obviously yes.
Is there sex discrimination in employment and in payment?—Unfortunately yes.

As for the use of the word, “orientalist” I think it fits to describe a person who tends to ignore diversities, generalize from his/her anecdote, using preconceptions, and describe it as “backward” in contrast with developed countries which are somehow another name for the West. If someone does not want to be so called, just be more careful. That is all there is to it.

leitmotiv

The peculiar definition offered above for that term has little in common with that of E. Said,

It mainly comes from the section on Said on the book called “understanding postcolonialism by Jane Hideleston.
So your guess is wrong—again.

Right, if you two kiddies can stop the name-calling for two seconds, we can focus on this. The real question is, is the image of the Japanese female office worker as little more than decoration to serve tea and make photocopies just an out-of-date Western myth, or does it still have some basis in fact, and if so, to what extent?

Now, given that this image is not restricted to Western views of Japan, but is prevalent in Japanese views of Japan as well, I think it is fair to claim that this facet represents Japanese office behaviour at least to a greater extent than US office behaviour. Things may be changing, it may not be at every company, but so far there has been a lack of sources quoted and a lot of insults, mainly about who is being “Orientalist” in the Edward Said definition of the term. or something like it.

you can just jot down “IMO” to support your opinions?

You missed the comment I made after that.

But maybe you are right

You are finally right, about my being right.

Shall I have my eyesight checked perhaps?

Perhaps your eyesight is okay, but your orientalist attitude is not.

・・・・Shall I inform Japanese colleagues and family members, who also decry these “fictionalized” facets of work life in Japan・・・・

I don’t deny there is such a facet just as you wouldn’t deny there is a facet in which sexist attitude exists at the office in the U.S. What I am calling into question is that such a facet represents Japanese office behavior or the U.S. office behavior.

“Assumer that all Japanese things are inferior”? i.e., your definition of an “orientalist”?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I stongly suggest you reserve comments for when you have something meaningful to say, or perhaps for when the Japan Probe thread tag is something appropriate, like “surreal art” or “clowns”

Hmmm。a very interesting reaction. (^_-)
I sort of like it when you get emotional.
Anyway I strongly suggest you to start dialouge with various Japanese in Japanese if you intend to keep living in Japanese society. Otherwise your complain will get you nowhere and you will just be the frog in the well as ever. (And as a side effect, perhaps some Japanese will realize that it is a myth that every oubeijin is educated to be a good debater.)

・・・・you simultaneously go on and on “off-topic” about a random court case in the US and whether its conceivable that some women dont have to serve tea in japanese offices. Meanwile, the actual topic – which is business strategy of Nomura apparently being stifled by inflexible anachronistic attitudes toward gender roles in Japan HQ

It　is leitmotiv who went off the the topic and started stating typical backward Japanese office behavior.
And perhaps you are reading too much from your personal experiences into this article.

BTW say hello to your Hokkaido resident boss.(^_-)

Its really instructive that you make a career of telling others what must be substantiated, to what degree, and to “stay on-topic” – this while you simultaneously go on and on “off-topic” about a random court case in the US and whether its conceivable that some women dont have to serve tea in japanese offices. Meanwile, the actual topic – which is business strategy of Nomura apparently being stifled by inflexible anachronistic attitudes toward gender roles in Japan HQ (nothing to do with narrow topic of whether men also serve tea in some places, nothing to do with random US court case) goes on, where I and others have commented extensively with some context. Such comments may be right or wrong, but you have steadfastly ignored context comments in this case and opted to accusations, name-calling, and general attempts to refocus discussions onto narrow, irrelevant, and disconnected topics – with constant tedious demands for “evidence”, “proof”, or “logic” for those which dont accomodate your view. Please look this up…its called OBFUSCATION.

No. leitmotiv

“No”? Just “no”? No supporting documentation or logic for whatever you are saying “no” to? Does it mean you dont call names? Unbelievable.

Illogical statement. To make this assertion,you need to show I do such a job and you don’t do such a job.　Just quote some from my comments instead of keeping making baseless accusations. IMO, it is letimotive who are doing such a job.

My opinion is illogical? Please take a moment to look up the word “logical”/”illogical”. Moreover, I have to prove with “logic” my opinions, but you can just jot down “IMO” to support your opinions? Be sure to look up “hypocrite” while you have the dictionary open.

You are wasting time, doing unbeatable jobs as mentioned above. I told you if you wanted to talk about me, just come to my blog.

I note your blog has 1 (one) entry for all of 2009 – in April. A real raging party over there discussing “topics related to ponta”, eh? I’ve said it before, your real viral marketing value is driving click traffic to the blog of a certain Hokkaido resident (who will remain nameless). Maybe ask him to add a link to your site…?

make me suspect you hold the orientalist attitude because you tend to ignore diversity, overgeneralize from your personal anecdote and pity your fictionalized typical uniform Japanese.

“Suspect?” No you are 110% sure. Or are you backing off now? You were so convinced before with your name-calling and accusations that you fling on this thread and several previous. My personal observations that I have posted here on these specific topics have proven all of that to you. Deshou? But maybe you are right….Perhaps what I see day-to-day with my own eyes in several different japanese companies is merely “fictionalized” and cannot represent any portion of reality? Shall I have my eyesight checked perhaps? Shall I inform Japanese colleagues and family members, who also decry these “fictionalized” facets of work life in Japan (and initially pointed them out to me before I arrived in japan), that an omniscient being named ponta has determined them to be some sort of “Japan hater” or “Japan disliker” or, at least, “Assumer that all Japanese things are inferior”? i.e., your definition of an “orientalist”?

Wow, when you become prime minister, theres going to be some serious book-burning parties, huh?

I stongly suggest you reserve comments for when you have something meaningful to say, or perhaps for when the Japan Probe thread tag is something appropriate, like “surreal art” or “clowns”.

You mean call names like “Japan hater” or “believer that, multilaterally, all things Japanese are self-evidently inferior” (aka “orientalist” by your definition)?

No. leitmotiv

Why would I even attempt such when you do such an unbeatable job of it yourself?

Illogical statement. To make this assertion,you need to show I do such a job and you don’t do such a job.　Just quote some from my comments instead of keeping making baseless accusations. IMO, it is letimotive who are doing such a job.

But you appear to have a serious japan-is-victim bee in your bonnet that is lending a farcical quality to your comments – which are often blatant obfuscations. I suggest developing some perspective and grow thicker skin. (But I appreciate you’re recent avoiding of irrelevant mention of a certain hokkaid residennt….)

You are wasting time, doing unbeatable jobs as mentioned above.
I told you if you wanted to talk about me, just come to my blog.
野次馬ハリーさんもよろしければどうぞ。
http://pontasmemorandum.blogspot.com/

Our weekly Orientalist support group met earlier today and have asked me to request you ・・・・

You statement

2009-07-30 18:41:27
This is a fairly typical discriminatory and backwards Japanese office behavior towards women. I have seen variations of this too often. Sad to see in 2009.

coupled with statements such as ,

in Japan the fateoff the OL seems to be fairly uniform from company to company.I say that based on what I have personally seen in Japan (leitmotiv
2008-10-15 17:23:50 http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=6612)

make me suspect you hold the orientalist attitude because you tend to ignore diversity, overgeneralize from your personal anecdote and pity your fictionalized typical uniform Japanese. Tell your Orientalist support group that that is your problem..

Is it possible that the brilliant post above

blah blah blah …Japan would be just like the west and, sorry folks, but that is just NOT a good thing.

is a commenter you might accuse of something called, by symmetrical application of your own definition, “occidentalism”? If so, is “occidentalism” also something you tirelessly hunt and extinguish in addition to “orientalism”? Just curious, and trying to be helpful.

You mean call names like “Japan hater” or “believer that, multilaterally, all things Japanese are self-evidently inferior” (aka “orientalist” by your definition)?

“Or are you just falsely claiming it to demonize me?”

Why would I even attempt such when you do such an unbeatable job of it yourself?

BTW – Our weekly Orientalist support group met earlier today and have asked me to request you to stop avoiding earlier direct question and specify which commenters on this very thread you accuse as being Orientalists when you “stayed on the topic some orientalists started.”(@2009-08-01 23:23:57)

I think they just want to see if they are good enough at orientalism to be on your list or not. Please let us know.

Sorry ponta – I honestly respect you in narrow sense for jamming here (mostly) in english, which is challenging. But you appear to have a serious japan-is-victim bee in your bonnet that is lending a farcical quality to your comments – which are often blatant obfuscations. I suggest developing some perspective and grow thicker skin. (But I appreciate you’re recent avoiding of irrelevant mention of a certain hokkaido resident….)

According to a recent Nikkei interview with Nomura
President Kenichi Watanabe, the Nikkei concludes that
Nomura has “steered clear of Lehman’s risk-laden balance
sheet and focused instead on the financial services
company’s healthy assets — namely, its personnel.”

The point is that Nomura-Japan seems to be unable to carry out its own strategy (at great cost) to retain certain talent by not taking some simple and obvious gender equality measures that are commensurate with 2009. Even though Nomura-US and Nomura-EU apparently have no such issue.

@ Overthinker – True: the plaintiffs in the article are not expressedly mentioned to be at Japan-based offices. But the article location is “TOKYO” and its hard to imagine such events to have happened in the EU without some much more explosive outcry than a dry WSJ mention. I am reasonably confident that the gender issues in the article pertain primarily to Japan offices of Nomura.

http://www.japaninc.com/tt488

It is 2 euro actually from memory, but that bought all the debt as well.

“Japan drops in global gender gap rankings: now 98th”
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=7210

“Nightclub hostesses make more money than office ladies”
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=6612

Harry

Comment by Harry
2009-08-02 21:33:24
“Or are you just falsely claiming it to demonize me?”
Ponta, false claims to demonize others are your stock in trade. I’m not surprised to see your hypocrisy in levelling the accusation at others. Your bad faith is quite striking.

Harry , if you wanted to talk about me or if you just wanted to call names, I told you to come to my blog.
Every time I talked with you, I gave you an opportunity to make an rebuttal , but every time, you just left. Does that count as demonizing you?
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=10840
ハリーさん、やにわに、ぴょこっと出てきて野次飛ばして、また去ってしまうようなことを繰り返していないで、しっかり、議論を尽くしましょう。

These stats are a decade old, but:
(http://www.hindu.com/businessline/praxis/pr0204/02040060.htm)
…1998 Fortune 500 survey, which found that while women hold 40 per cent of all management positions in America
…women CEOs in Japan are still very rare. Women headed 60,593 firms in June 1999, just 5 per cent of the country’s 1.14 million companies.
Now, “management positions” and “headed” are perhaps not the same, so make of that what you will. However: “”Unlike female leaders on the career track in western nations, a majority of Japanese women are heading family-type firms,” a spokesman of the Teikoku Data Bank, Japan’s largest credit research agency, said.”

Here Japan rates 91st:
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf
The only countries below Japan, aside from Korea, are African and Arab countries.

Those are all the remotely pertinant facts I could get from the WSJ. The WSJ never actually came out and said where these hires were, but I am leaning at the moment to either a global or US-based (though there were only 20 in NY) hiring, despite the fact there were at least 100 former Lehmmings working for Nomura in Japan. I think if it was in Japan then that would also be mentioned.

Incidentally, if you want to read the whole article, do a search for “nomura hires lehman ” then click on the wsj link a couple down. For some reason that bypasses the login screen.

I think before we can go any further with this we really need some more actual facts.

BTW- I assumed that this was taking place at a U.S. branch of Nomura but I may be assuming wrongly. As Overthinker overthinks, there are probably non-Americans among the staff questioning the training. And although it doesn’t mention what kind of training the men underwent, I wouldn’t be surprised to see dress and grooming among them. Tea? Who knows. I’ve had men serve me tea in Japan.

Ponta, false claims to demonize others are your stock in trade. I’m not surprised to see your hypocrisy in levelling the accusation at others. Your bad faith is quite striking.

leitmotiv

In this case, anyplace ・・・・

Here is your relevant comment you made.

2009-07-30 18:41:27
This is a fairly typical discriminatory and backwards Japanese office behavior towards women. I have seen variations of this too often. Sad to see in 2009.

Here you are making a sweep generalization on Japanese office behavior towards women and making a negative evaluation on it in comparison with others.
I am asking, in contrasting this “typical backward Japanese” behavior , which others do you have in mind?

Interesting that you commonly decry “arrogant” comments but you have the arrogance to assign obtuse, head-scratching labels to specific Japan Probe commenters without providing anything to back up your “opinion” (in your own words).

Could you just specify which statement do you want me to back up?
I am sick and tired of your ad hominem attack, Do you want me to quote such comments of yours to back up the claim?

What exactly is an “orientalist”? Is this a new cult in Japan? And which specific commenters above are the “orientalists” (whatever that means) do you feel the need to downplay on this topic

An orientalist is a person who specializes in oriental subjects, but in this particular context I mean a person who claims to know orientals, in this case, Japanese, without checking diversities,a person who engages in a discourse which reconstitutes the East, (in this case Japan) , using preconceptions and assumption, deforming people that actually exist. a person who make a superficial appropriation of multiple and distinctive others into the broad schema of the superior West pitted against the inferior East.

even though you claim you “don’t know much about general practice of Japanese companies”?

Of course I　know some cases, perhaps I know much more cases than you know and I know the diversities, but I don’t know so much that I can say this is, or is not a typical instance.

I have already commented on closly related topics from my own personal observations and second hand info from friends + family members re this issue on earlier Japan Probe threads

Is that all despite your claim that this is “often-discussed, much blogged about and debated office practices”?

As noted by myself and several others on these threads, your constant repeated demand for “sources”, then subsequently dismissing the sources as “orientalist” propaganda or similar is tiresome and demonstrates non-seriousness.

I don’t remember I dismissed the source as “orientalist” or similar. Could you quote some? Or are you just falsely claiming it to demonize me?

Even allowing your use of “orientalist” to mean something other than “disagrees with ponta personally on japan topics” – I certainly would never assume that. In fact I assume the opposite.

Hmmm,Interesting. After all you knew my usage of “orientalist” and still asked what it is? Or do you just assume the opposite of what you don’t know it means?

Kind of sums them up really, “it’s so humiliating, but I’ll put up with it until I get that bonus that was in my contract.”

Money or self respect ? These people made that decision the day they opted for a job in the wonderfool world of finance, or “licking the crumbs that fall from Goldman’s table” as it is now called.

In this case, anyplace in rest of industrial world (RoIW) ex-Japan where Nomura maintains banking offices. Could Nomura pull same stunt in article in those offices without losing talent and business and/or incurring serious legal repercussions – plus of course igniting accusations of backwardness and anachronism? Answer: certainly not. Nor would Nomura be silly enough attempt such. They neednt “study” anything in the US (assuming your idea that something in the US is somehow relevant to this, which it is not).

I stayed on the topic some orientalists started.

Interesting that you commonly decry “arrogant” comments but you have the arrogance to assign obtuse, head-scratching labels to specific Japan Probe commenters without providing anything to back up your “opinion” (in your own words). What exactly is an “orientalist”? Is this a new cult in Japan? And which specific commenters above are the “orientalists” (whatever that means) do you feel the need to downplay on this topic – even though you claim you “don’t know much about general practice of Japanese companies”?

Back up your claim with sources.

I have already commented on closly related topics from my own personal observations and second hand info from friends + family members re this issue on earlier Japan Probe threads. Threads in which someone named “ponta” participated to generally downplay the veracity of such sources and comments thereabout. As noted by myself and several others on these threads, your constant repeated demand for “sources”, then subsequently dismissing the sources as “orientalist” propaganda or similar is tiresome and demonstrates non-seriousness.

And don’t assume everyone share your orientalist assumption.

Even allowing your use of “orientalist” to mean something other than “disagrees with ponta personally on japan topics” – I certainly would never assume that. In fact I assume the opposite.

This is your interpretation of what the judge thinks, right? Well, no doubt the judge is aware, as I noted earlier, that this is the earlier established custom. And it has come to be considered as “wrong or misguided,” which, if we can use a major company like Nomura as an example, is unlike the Japanese situation. And if the practice does exist in the US, it exists illegally and there are legal methods for dealing with it, and that are used for such. This is not to claim that every Japanese company does this, or that no company in the US would try to get away with it.

By reading article and noting similarities to own observations

Backward means behind others in progress or development:it presuppose others. When you said it, you were supposed to have a comparison in mind. So what did you have mind when you said “backward”?
And “typical” means of a representative specimen; characteristic or distinctive. You need to back up your “opinion”.

Please consider taking your own advise occasionally

I stayed on the topic some orientalists started.

.unfortunately the only reasonable response to one who feigns naiive ignorance of standard, often-discussed, much blogged about and debated office practices in their own home country.

Back up your claim with sources. And don’t assume everyone share your orientalist assumption.
In any case, the fact remains that your response was stupid and uncivilized,

By reading article and noting similarities to own observations. As I stated clearly.

Stay on the topic.

Please consider taking your own advise occasionally. A US court case has nothing to do with this. Nor does Nomura have anything to specifically “study” or learn from the US. They are doing just fine in RoW outside japan.

Stupid and uncivilized question/statement.

….unfortunately the only reasonable response to one who feigns naiive ignorance of standard, often-discussed, much blogged about and debated office practices in their own home country.

How is something in the US relevant?

How can somebody claim “This is a fairly typical discriminatory and backwards Japanese office behavior without comparison?

To you, there is perhaps never enough information in an article if you percive something “Japanese” to be on the defensive.

A wrong guess. Stay on the topic. And if you want to talk about me, come to my blog. Here, all you need to do is to quote some sentences from the article to back up your claim.

Are you fortunate enough to not have to work? Or do you live in a remote cave?

Stupid and uncivilized question/statement.

How is something in the US relevant? And why would Nomura “study” it? Nomura’s US and EU offices operate reasonably well already to 21st century racial and gender diversity norms.

Secondly, we don’t know much about the details about the cases..

True, birthdates, phone numbers, and home address were suspiciously omitted. To you, there is perhaps never enough information in an article if you percive something “Japanese” to be on the defensive.

Thirdly, I don’t know much about general practice of Japanese companies.

LMAO – Are you fortunate enough to not have to work? Or do you live in a remote cave?

Nomura is trying hard to retain Lehman talent following acquisition, to the point where they set aside lots of cash for incentives to that end. The professionals at Lehman were a generally a different type of banker than at Nomura, conducting a type of leveraging and risk taking business that Nomura apparently wants to do more of. It can be inferred that the plaintiffs in the article are exactly the type of professional assets that Nomura set out to acquire by purchasing the dried husk that was Lehman Asia/EU. (They didn’t do it solely for the toxic paper on their books.) They want to turn Nomura into a more serious international investment player than a conservative Japan banking services player. They shoot themselves in the foot by chasing the Lehman assets away after buying them by not taking some very simple steps to harmonizing the workplace re gender discrimination to the current century. Not even to the level of Nomura’s own offices in EU and US (which I understand do quite well in gender and racial diversity). The story here is Japan-based intractable old-boy hierarchies in Nomura HQ stifling progress (at great cost) by inability to understand post 1970s professional woman’s POV. “But This is Japan….” arguments do not apply here (or anywhere, generally).

I’ll say it again….

HEALTH TIP: Four out of five doctors recommend Japan Probe threads for up to 110% of your recommended daily intake of self-loathing.

Your use of bold for “traditional” implies you think it means something

It means that the judge thinks it has been a long-established custom.And it also probably shows that though it has come to be considered as wrong or misguided, the practice still exists to some extent in the U.S. and that calls into question the assumption that the U.S is as “advanced” in this respect as some orientalists here wants to believe.

I have yet to see any evidence they were Americans. And the sexist angle is not that they were taught these things, but the very clear implication that they were separated from the men and taught these things: ie that the men were not. I agree that an arrogant sense of entitlement is a good thing to get kicked out of you, but it should be kicked out equally.

Let me rant for a second- this article (and the interviewees) seem to be trying very hard to present the “Japanese company imposes its sexist attitudes upon well-educated Americans” angle. So, the new employees were taught company etiquette, customer service (tea), and grooming. OK- You could make a statement for being too much of a nanny corporation and I personally would not respond well in such a company because I think I know how to present myself professionally. That’s a personal preference though, it’s not social or political. The implicit sexist angle seems to be grasping at straws.

In many Japanese organiztions the top brass will perform humble routines, the celebrated chef will start by dicing carrots in the kitchen with the rookies. There’s far less of that sense of entitlement involved. Not such a bad thing.

Here is the key difference with Nomura in this case. Here there ARE men in similar jobs.

And has anyone considered that these Harvard graduates might be Japanese Harvard graduates? Has any article actually mentioned their nationality?

Everyone says it’s ‘backwards’, and it’s ‘discriminatory’…; No, it’s Japan and their system works. Change that system and before you know it Japan would be just like the west and, sorry folks, but that is just NOT a good thing.

Nomura should have studied the case in the U.S.

Thursday, Jun. 26, 2008

Making Female Receptionist Get Coffee Is Not Sexist
By LINDA COADY, ESQ., Andrews Publications Staff Writer
A receptionist fired for refusing to serve coffee to the men in her office failed to show that the activity was so sexist it amounted to sexual harassment, according to a federal judge in Philadelphia.

The lack of spoken or written comments, physical gestures intended to intimidate her, or any other evidence that she was asked to conform to traditional “gender-specific stereotypes” doomed her hostile-environment claim, Judge Schiller said.

There was only one receptionist in the office, and no men have held that job at National Sales, the judge noted.

Because there were no men in similar jobs, Klopfenstein was unable to show disparate treatment, Judge Schiller said.

Perhapes Nomura should have also known how to play the game in the U.S

Bill Weir asks if sexuality has evolved since 1950″
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7088847
“The manner has changed but the game remains the same.”(ABC)

Perhaps is it better to take the emotional strain on couple’s marrige when firing male employees?

When women bring Home the bacon (ABC)
Role reversal creates emotional strain on couple’s marriage.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7091613