I was walking back from Roppongi gym to my apartment in Minami Azabu, and three cops stopped me, this was the third time by the way. All three times the common theme was I had not shaven for two days and I was carrying a gym bag. Interestingly, when I walk back from station with my suit they usually bow.

I speak fluent Japanese, and had a big fight with the guys.

I think they are looking for Iranian guys with drugs. I am an Indian American from NY, so fit the profile.

In some sense, the people are shallow, in some sense they are naive. I just pity them. They are not racist, they just don’t know any other race. It was kind of funny me shouting at three policemen in Japanese at the corner of LoI building and everyone watching it. Unimaginable in New York.

I still love the country.

I am talking about ethnic minorities in Japan, so I was using the word “Japanese” to refer to the country. Like “Canadian ethnic minorities” would not only mean Inuit etc., but also for example Canadian residents of minority groups, such as those of Asian ethnicity etc. Sorry for the confusion, I realize there is a tendency to consider “Japanese” only as those from Joman or Yayoi backgrounds, but that is not accurate IMO.

Do yourself a favor a Google “職務質問”and you’ll soon realize that it’s not a “foreinger” problem. Do yourself a favor and look up the National Police Agency stats on how many were arrested as a result of “職務質問”　 It’s over 150K in 2006. Are they mostly foreigners based on your logic?

I do want to discuss, but not with someone who dismisses the voice of Japanese ethnic minorities as “misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, or factually incorrect”.

Again don’t put words in my mouth.
Do you prefer an exclusionary organization filled with misleading messages, lies, and hatred with no intention to retract to an a group working, discussing with the natives providing adequate information?
Don’t be Japanophobia. I’ll welcome you as long as you are open to discussions.

There are also no reports yet of force or coercion. As far as I know, all urine submissions were cooperative (maybe involving an element of intimidation in such a situation or not being aware of the right to refuse). So the cops have not broken any laws. They are perfectly entitled to ASK you for a urine sample. Hell, I’M entitled to ask you for a urine sample. You are, however, free to refuse me just as you may refuse the cops (unless they have a warrant). So far, I have not heard of a refusal followed by force, threats, or an arrest. Speculation that refusal would be interpreted as obstruction of justice remains just that, speculation.

This argument does not reflect my own experiences with police checks. The usual technique for example for street bag checks without probable cause or warrants is that the cops “request” the person targeted allow them to search. If the person agrees, then the search proceeds and maybe no law has been broken. If they refuse however, the cops ask “why” over and over, and the target person’s repeated refusals is then deemed :suspicious,” which, the cops then say, gives them probable cause. It is a pseudo-logic, but it serves the cops well. Yes it’s speculation but I would not be surprised if this is how the cops are proceeding with their new urine tests.

I actually don’t think this topic is related to foreigners at all, and more likely something that needs to be openly discussed on news variety programs. Similar to the debate over tasers in the US, I think Japanese people really need to decided how much is too much, and set clear limits on police authority. We’ve already seen what can happen if things go wrong with that man who was wrongly imprisoned for 17 years.

This strongly suggests you think Japanese residents who are members of ethnic minorities should find their voice through “racially pure”Japanese,

Don’t put words in my mouth.
It seems you just don’t want any discussion.What’s your problem? I’ll listen.
And do you believe there are racially “pure” Japanese? —I think that makes no sense.
And if you want to discuss, click “Reply to this comment.

This strongly suggests you think Japanese residents who are members of ethnic minorities should find their voice through “racially pure” Japanese, so you answered my question thanks.

They could be arresting everyone who is refusing a test. You’re just assuming they aren’t.

Right. That is why i’ve kept saying from the beginning the facts should be checked.

You might say this will just lead to more crime, but this is where the police are supposed to be investigating and looking for actual crimes taking place

I know there are people who insist like that.
That’s why I told at 2009-07-03 01:07:52
“Here someone might disagree and say it is the police’s job to respect his right fully AND to round up the drug dealers. I would say if a little bit of my cooperation will make the criminals unhappy, I would rather work with the cops.
We can agree to disagree here.”

You keep mentioning that you would be bothered if these kinds of police tests were taking place all over, but what happens is that once a precedent has been set,

As I said at 2009-07-03 20:52:59, this is another point people evaluate differently.
For my part, I see no sign that this is the fist step for the police to use it as a precedent to conduct the operation in other irrelevant areas, though as I said, the facts should be checked where and how often this kind of operation is happening.

Communications are difficult. Communications between people from different cultures are more difficult.
That is why we need a forum to discuss frankly and in a cool headed way.

A forum filled with unreliable information, misleading messages, lies, and hatred with no intention to retract will do more harm than good.

I thank Kevin to have presented good arguments, and I thank Japan Probe to have given us such an open forum.

In case of roppongi, the cop are not depriving the right to leave without taking a drug test.

Like you said, we don’t have enough information, so we don’t actually know if this is true. They could be arresting everyone who is refusing a test. You’re just assuming they aren’t.

And it seems to me you are talking rather in view of illegal drug users than general public. Sure illegal drug users would be happy if the cop asked them to take drug test as a condition for the entry rather than being asked to take it when leaving because they could just choose not to enter the club.

This is a very important point to my argument. It’s important that we protect the rights of all individuals at all times, and not just when it’s convenient. You might say this will just lead to more crime, but this is where the police are supposed to be investigating and looking for actual crimes taking place – they can get a warrant and perform a raid, they can make use of undercover agents, etc. Blanket tests are not part of a proper investigation because they are not based on probable cause – visiting an area that has a history of crime does not mean that everyone in that area is a criminal, it only means that police have to be more diligent with their investigations.

You keep mentioning that you would be bothered if these kinds of police tests were taking place all over, but what happens is that once a precedent has been set, it creeps into other areas. So what is acceptable now in Roppongi at 6am might be acceptable at 3pm in Shibuya next week. People who complain are portrayed as the criminals, and authorities will say, “You have nothing to fear if you’re doing nothing wrong.” You have even done the same thing by mentioning I’m thinking too much like an illegal drug user with my arguments.

but visiting a particular club or going to a particular part of town doesn’t mean you are a drug user.

Actually they are not asking anyone but the people leaving the club that has been alleged to do with drug dealings.

but let’s say there has been a string of break-ins in your hometown. Does that mean they should start fingerprinting people in the neighborhood?

No, but they might ask suspects to fingerprint,(though technically that won’t be necessary.)

People in the UK should be able to enter a club without taking a drug test, and no I don’t think it’s okay for police to do tests on people entering a club, but by doing this on entry the police are making it a voluntary choice.

Here you are being a bit tricky, As I said before, in one sense they have a choice, in another sense they don’t.
As you admit, people have the right to enter without taking a drug test, but in U.K. case the police are depriving people of the right. You are looking at the case in U.K, in a positive light. and you are reading too much in negative light into the case in roppoingi. In case of roppongi, the cop are not depriving the right to leave without taking a drug test.
And it seems to me you are talking rather in view of illegal drug usersr than general public. Sure illegal drug users would be happy if the cop asked them to take drug test as a condition for the entry rather than being asked to take it when leaving because they could just choose not to enter the club.

General public are concerned about illegal drugs. And they know it is sometimes extremely hard to track down the drug-users.
I.M.O. people are not worried by this kind of the police’ operation because they know it won’t happen anywhere except for the very limited place at the very limited time for good reasons, they will start worried about it if it turns out the cops are forcing the test, if there is a sign that it will happen more often at irrelevant places, if the cops are racially profiling. People who are worried most by this particular type of operation are probably drug users around the clubs in questions.

And just for the record, 6am to 8am is normal if you go to clubs. Trains stop in Japan and most people will stick around until the club closes.

Most people don’t stick around a club until 8 am. Most of them go home much earlier. They have things to do the next day. That is one reason I think people wouldn’t consider the operation unreasonable.

Don’t you think it would have been better if the police got a warrant to search the club while it was still open?

That is a good way to deal with the problem. But this kind of operation, as I said, is effective in sending the message to the people who visit the club for illegal drug and to the people in town who are concerned about the illegal drugs ,besides serving as a basis for a fully-fledged raid.

you really need to stop posting links for situations in other countries.
They are unrelated to what’s going on in Japan, and honestly don’t help discuss the problems people are facing in Japan.

They are related because it gives a wider perspective on the related issue for a discussion on the problem people are facing in Japan.

If you’re sick of people saying, “It’s better in my country,” then you should also be sick of saying, “It’s worse in your country.”

Point taken.
I hope some people will stop talking down as if their country does not have similar problems.
I have absolutely no intention to say your country is worse, nor Japan is better, nor your country’s injustice justifies Japan’s injustice.
I used to ask people to talk as if Japan was your own country. That was the indirect way to ask not to use a double standard. Some people didn’t get the message. So I started posting links for situations in other countries to block the discourse that fictionally narrate Japan—i.e., without checking the facts, without understanding the institution, the practice, etc.—-in contrast with fictionally glorified Europe (and north America).
When i present the link, the flow of a discussion somehow changes in such a way they take the problem as their own problem and start presenting a balanced view. Besides, somehow sometimes their own bias is revealed.
So I’ll post links for situations in other countries when I see it fit. Just take a look at it as a reference in wider perspective. Just because it is worse in your own country doesn’t not mean you cannot criticize Japan’s practice if you are willing to criticize both and don’t use a double standard. Sometimes some people look at their own country/their civilization in an unreasonably positive light and Japan in an unreasonably negative light— That is wrong.

Let me make it clear again that I am not for the blanket search.
We don’t know much about this case, and we don’t know that they were forced, and we don’t even know it was blanket stoppings of the patrons who left the bar as you seem to assume.

But you do. Because unless the police actually see someone using drugs, they shouldn’t have the right to stop someone. There’s no probable cause. And I’m sorry, but visiting a particular club or going to a particular part of town doesn’t mean you are a drug user. You keep saying you understand the searches because there is a lot of drug activity in that part of town, but let’s say there has been a string of break-ins in your hometown. Does that mean they should start fingerprinting people in the neighborhood? Your argument is ‘yes’ they should. A better use of police work would have been to send undercover agents into the club to look for actual drug users/dealers – and then they could have arrested actual criminals with a warrant.

Let me ask. Do people not have the right to enter a club they like without taking the drug test in U.K.?
Do you think it is okay for the police to make people to take the drug test as a condition of the entry for a club which has no allegation drug dealings?

People in the UK should be able to enter a club without taking a drug test, and no I don’t think it’s okay for police to do tests on people entering a club, but by doing this on entry the police are making it a voluntary choice. The legality of their actions is extremely questionable, but at least it’s on the way in and not on the way out. If Japanese police wanted to search people on the way in, I would think it is just as crappy as what’s going on in the UK, but at least patrons could take their business to other clubs. Searching patrons on the way out adds a very high level of intimidation because it’s easy to fear that you’ll never go home if you get arrested. And just for the record, 6am to 8am is normal if you go to clubs. Trains stop in Japan and most people will stick around until the club closes. Don’t you think it would have been better if the police got a warrant to search the club while it was still open?

I hope somebody else set up an organization to provide useful information and a open forum where Japanese and foreigners can discuss frankly the problem facing English-speaking people in Japan.

Well, first of all, you really need to stop posting links for situations in other countries. They are unrelated to what’s going on in Japan, and honestly don’t help discuss the problems people are facing in Japan. If you’re sick of people saying, “It’s better in my country,” then you should also be sick of saying, “It’s worse in your country.”

I also find it equally appalling how easily you would give up your rights, especially considering that this is Japan and presumably the country of your birth.

Let me make it clear again that I am not for the blanket search.
We don’t know much about this case, and we don’t know that they were forced, and we don’t even know it was blanket soppings of the patrons who left the bar as you seem to assume.
That is why we should check the facts.

Now, as for the kind operation that I think is reasonable, I repeat.

suppose that a club has been notorious for drug dealing and it gives the town a bad name. The citizens are concerned about it. I say it is reasonable for the police, their presence being limited to a very particular time and a very particular place, to ask the patrons leaving the club and people around the club allegedly related to illegal drug for drug test on a voluntary basis,, as long as the tests are not the search/arrest for which you need a warrant in Japanese law.
It gives a strong message to the town and the citizens.; the police is also concerned about it and hopefully it will reduce the crime, without taking away the right of citizens, giving inconvenience to as few people unrelated as possible .

I am not against this kind of operation, and if I should be there, I’d comply with the cop.
May I ask what’s your opinion about this kind of operation?

Now let’s look at the “report” on Debito blog.

It was between 6 and 8 am on a saturday morning and there were a big group of police and police vans. it took place right outside gaspanic/odeon/wall street etc in roppongi, the littl side road near donkeys. they were basically stopping 75% of all non japanese as they left the clubs and bars there,

If you remember, Odeon is the place where foreigners as well as Japanese were arrested for illegal drug in May. The place is limited to the place around the clubs which are alleged to be dealing with illegal drugs. The time of the operation was in the early morning when average men and women were not in action yet. For the reason I said above, I am not against it as long as they were not forced, they are not racially profiled.
We don’t know. That is why I said again and again people should check the facts before they make fuss.

All I have to do is look at the line of people entering the club, see that the police are testing for drugs, and if I don’t like that, find a new club. If I’m stupid enough to get in line and then refuse the test, then I might run into problems.

Let me ask. Do people not have the right to enter a club they like without taking the drug test in U.K.?
Do you think it is okay for the police to make people to take the drug test as a condition of the entry for a club which has no allegation drug dealings?

if you run into one of those police that abuse their power, you are now going to jail.

Police can abuse their power any time, And I am not an anarchist. I trust them as well I am　cautious of their abuse.

We don’t have all of the details in this situation, but the simple fact that police are going out and requesting drug tests is a gross violation of privacy and unwarranted. They are conducting these tests on the sole premise that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time

In U.K. it seems they demanded. In roppoongi, so far, they asked
And yet would you have no problem in case of the U.K.?

How in the world can you equate not entering a club with not being able to return home because you’re going to jail?

You can’t. But who couldn’t ‘t return home? though illegal drug dealers/takers might be in jail in both case of entering and leaving a club.
It seems you are talking a bit in favor of drug dealers/takers and as if the police were always abusing their power.
The time and the place of the operation was limited. As far as we know, the operation was supposedly made to inconvenience as few innocent people as possible. And I say under this special circumstance, I’d comply with the cop if I should be there.

since he was the first person to report on this topic you have have immediately sided with the police on this, and would give up your rights to police simply because you’re sick of Debito’s bias.

My reason for approving this kind of operation has nothing to do with Debito.
And as I said again and again I hope they’ll do effective job this time without cheating. But to do so, they need facts.
The fact that the police sometimes conduct urine test, the fact that the police need a warrant if people asked don’t corporate, they don’t need a warrant if they cooperate does not constitute illegality.
I am saying,to do effective job, people should check the facts if people were forced, if this kind of operation is happening everywhere, if they were racially profiled.

Now if they are against the kind operation of asking for drug test on voluntary basis that is limited to very particular place and time to reduce the related crime, good, though my opinion is different.

But yes I hate his tactics. And I think his blog is like 2channel. The both sometimes have the elements of truth, but at the same time. they are filled with unreliable and misleading information, irresponsible messages, rumors, and hatred.And ironically his blog is perhaps most exclusionary Japan blog while 2channel is open to everyone.

I hope somebody else set up an organization to provide useful information and a open forum where Japanese and foreigners can discuss frankly the problem facing English-speaking people in Japan.

I don’t know how I can make this any clearer. I’m going to use your exact quotes to show you:

There is no HOPE to enter the club without taking the test. People e who wanted to enter the club were forced to take the drug test.In this sense, it is more invasive in that they are taking away the right to enter the club without taking the test.

You do realize we’re talking about entering a club, right? All I have to do is look at the line of people entering the club, see that the police are testing for drugs, and if I don’t like that, find a new club. If I’m stupid enough to get in line and then refuse the test, then I might run into problems. But generally speaking, the worst case scenario is that I don’t get in the club.

Now in Roppongi:

I honestly believe that the police will sometimes take no answer in good faith and other times in bad faith.
I am fully aware that they can abuse 公務執行妨害（the obstruction of public business) to arrest someone.

In Roppongi, these tests were supposedly being done as patrons leave the club – unlike the UK situation, there is no way for you to avoid a confrontation with police – thus, the ‘blanket’ search. And based solely on your quote, think about this for a second – if you run into one of those police that abuse their power, you are now going to jail. You can only hope that you get a reasonable officer who lets you go even if you refuse the test.

UK – not getting into the club
Roppongi – getting arrested

We don’t have all of the details in this situation, but the simple fact that police are going out and requesting drug tests is a gross violation of privacy and unwarranted. They are conducting these tests on the sole premise that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time – that’s not police work, that’s laziness. How in the world can you equate not entering a club with not being able to return home because you’re going to jail?

Ponta, you clearly hate Debito and his website, but since he was the first person to report on this topic you have have immediately sided with the police on this, and would give up your rights to police simply because you’re sick of Debito’s bias. This has nothing to do with foreigners which is why it’s stupid that Debito is bringing this up. But, this has everything to do with the fact that police have overstepped their bounds instead of actually doing their jobs.

Ponta I notice a pattern in your comments, wherein (if) you admit something is wrong in Japan,

I’ve already answered your questions in a comment to Kevin.
And I might add, I hate the double standard.

Do you honestly think Japan’s foreign community is unaware of the world outside?

Some are, others are not.

Do you support people working to make their country of residence a better place?

I’ve suggested to organize a group working with native Japanese to provide correct and useful information and a lively forum to the newcomers rather than an organization which refuse to post retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, factually incorrect.
Several times I’ve even offered to help.

I ask because the above approach suggests you’ll defend the status quo in Japan, so long as it ranks at least second-to-last among the community of nations.

I don’t understand this statement. Could you expand on that?

With regards to human rights, I think you set low standards for your country.

I don’t understand it either. Could you expand on that ?

If you don’t like that, maybe you should get the hell out. I hear North Korea doesn’t tolerate dissent, and is even less “western” (read:overly liberal).

I ask: Do you support people working to make their country of residence a better place? I ask because the above approach suggests you’ll defend the status quo in Japan, so long as it ranks at least second-to-last among the community of nations.

With regards to human rights, I think you set low standards for your country.

. I get stopped every other day.

If you want to enjoy the conversation with the cops,that’s okay, but if you don’t like it, you should file a complaint.

They said, “In Japan you don’t need a warrant if you have reason to believe the person is using drugs.”

I am not sure the actual words you and the cops used,
But the contrast is between 強制　and 任意
They should be interpreted as saying
“In Japan you don’t need a warrant to ask someone for the drug testif you have reason to believe the person is using drugs. and they cooperate”
That is why another officer said, “We would never ask you to take a test

You said that you would have no problem with the cop’s behavior at the club in U.K.
But the police’s behavior is outrageous if the club has had no trouble with illegal drug before, isn’t it?
Suppose the police start standing in front of several clubs which are free from the crimes to test people, is it okay because people still have choice to find another club? I don’t think so.

So we agree that under some circumstances it is okay for the cop to ask people to take the drug test.

Suppose the police start testing people as a condition of entry to several public houses which have been alleged to be related to drug dealing. It seems you would say it is okay because there are another club to visit.

Now, both of us agree that it is vital that people have choice.

In case of U.K. in one sense people have the choice:you can find another club. In another sense,people have no choice; supposedly you can not enter the club without taking the test. There is no HOPE to enter the club without taking the test. People e who wanted to enter the club were forced to take the drug test.In this sense, it is more invasive in that they are taking away the right to enter the club without taking the test.
(, provided people in U.K have the right to enter the club without taking the drug test),

In case of roppongi, people have choice. People have the right to refuse the test. The problem arises if the police force people to take the test. But so far no report of being forced has been made.

This is where we disagree.
You say the case in U.K. is okay but the case in roppoingi is not okay.
(And this is where I sort of sense your bias toward Japan–and perhaps toward U.K.too—I might be mistaken.)
I say the police’s behavior would be wrong if it turned out,
it was happening everywhere.
the police forced
the police was racially profiling.

And under these particular circumstances, I think people’s behavior to take the drug test if asked is not abnormal. you think it is.

But perhaps we probably agree that we need more facts confirmed.

Debito Says:
July 1st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Debito here. Reporter friend of mine wants to know if anyone has undergone the urine test.

Let’s hope they start constructive business rather than just collecting and spreading the rumors while rejecting to post retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, factually incorrect.

““western” (read: overly liberal) way.”

Ah, and there we have it folks. THAT’S why ML is a blithering idiot. ALL countries in the west are overly liberal, ML? Like Germany and Portugal, right?Also, last time I check the USA is still a very conservative country, only they’re currently run by Democrats (liberals and lefties).

ATTENTION!!

Everything ML says past “overly liberal” should be 100% disregarded. He gives conservatives a bad name. Thank you.

Either you take the test AND enter the club OR refuse and find another club.

Either you take the test AND enter the station OR refuse and find another station to ride a train. Is that okay?

It’s more like this:

Either you take the test AND enter the club OR refuse and find another club.

In case of roppoingi, either you take the test AND go home OR hope the police let you go home. This is a crucial point to understand.

And yes, we’ll never know the facts I suppose, but this above point is why this so egregious.

Of course the police are allowed to test for drugs. But there is a huge difference between blanket testing </blockquote＞
Are police allowed to test for drug at the entry of shimoigusa sation becasue people can walk to the next station and ride a train ？
According to your logic, it seems you would say yes. I say no. And I'd call it a crazy blanket testing where people want to cry out , "give me a liberty or give me a death".

And for those who want to enter the club in U.K, the situation is not much different from the case at roppongi. Either you take the test, OR enter the club, refusing the test, OR you sneaikingly enter the club without taking the test. In case of roppoingi, either you take the test, OR,leave the club, refusing the test, OR you sneakingly leave the club.
You would have no problem with the former, but you take issue with the latter. I don't understand why.

This whole Roppongi controversy is because the police are supposedly doing this to club patrons leaving the club.

We really don’t know much about the situation except for the facts that some Roppoing clubs are known for the place for drug dealing and that an anonymous person like the one on 2channel, which is known as a forum filled with misleading, fake, irresponsible, malice, incorrect messages, claimed that he/she witness the people being asked to take the drug test near clubs at the Roppoingi and that police sometimes conducts the urine test and that the police don’t need a warrant if people corporate and the police need it if people don’t corporate.

Now, suppose that a club has been notorious for drug dealing and it gives the town a bad name. The citizens are concerned about it. I say it is reasonable for the police, their presence being limited to a very particular time and a very particular place, to ask the patrons leaving the club and people around the club allegedly related to illegal drug for drug test on a voluntary basis,, as long as the tests are not the search/arrest for which you need a warrant in Japanese law.
It gives a strong message to the town and the citizens.; the police is also concerned about it and hopefully it will reduce the crime, without taking away the right of citizens, giving inconvenience to as few people unrelated as possible .

It stinks like a police raid without warrants.

There is a big difference between legal and reasonable policing and a illegal police raid without warrant.

I want to say this again. (not to Kevin)
Check the facts, the situation, laws and the practice and actual operation of institutions in the host country first before being agitated and propagating based on the unreliable information .Otherwise , at worst,those people whining sometimes just look like the young people embodying their cultural bias who love wacky and pervert oriental Japan but hate to work with the local people, in the worst scenario, sympathising with the foreign criminals just because they are foreigners.

Consult a reliable person,Consult the right human right activists who are willing to posts retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, disingenuous, factually incorrect or worse racist,
If you think your right is violated, work with them and use the local institution available and file a complaint. that way, your complaints will add up to something effective and constructive instead of just sending hateful and wrong messages to the host nation. (remember English is not a secret code Japanese cannot decipher.)Japanese people will welcome such human right activism.

Then I asked them about the random drug testings. They said they’ve heard of it… so I asked them if a warrant is required. They both said, “No warrant is required.” I said well in USA you can’t demand a test unless you have a warrant. I asked if it was different in Japan. They said, “In Japan you don’t need a warrant if you have reason to believe the person is using drugs.” One officer said, “We would never ask you to take a test because we’re having a good conversation and you don’t seem like you use drugs.”

So they liked me and we had a good conversation = I didn’t have to take a test. If they didn’t like me or we didn’t have a good conversation then what?

This whole Roppongi controversy is because the police are supposedly doing this to club patrons leaving the club. It stinks like a police raid without warrants.

The reason I feel this is acceptable is because I still have the option to forgo the test and go to a different club.

In any case, after all you admit there are cases where it is okay for the cops to ask people for the drug test　and there are in fact cases where people voluntarily take it.

Does that even sound like a remotely possible scenario

The actual scenario close to yours might be something like, (supposing I Person B does not want to take the test)

Person B: No. Do you have a warrant?
Police: No, but could you corporate?
Person B: Sorry, no
Police might just let him go but suppose that the cop wanted him to take the test.
Police: Hmmm, you took illegal drug or something, didn’t you?
Person: No comment, can I go or should I call the lawyer?
That will settle it.

And you admitted before that you would have no problem if the police were just testing people entering clubs　in the U.K.

The reason I feel this is acceptable is because I still have the option to forgo the test and go to a different club. Think of it as one of the conditions of buying a ticket. If the club starts to notice a drop in patrons they will complain to police and try to have the tests stopped. I was not referring to a scenario that you mentioned where someone still tries to enter the club but without taking the test.

And do you honestly believe that if the police have gone to the trouble to do blanket drug testing on club patrons that they will accept no as an answer?

Police: Ok, you’re next. Time for your urine test.
Person A: Ok.
Police: Ok, you’re next. Time for your urine test.
Person B: No. Do you have a warrant?
Police: No, ok, next. Time for your urine test.

Does that even sound like a remotely possible scenario?

Stop devaluing the word “racist” as well, you people love to shout that word as soon as the smallest problem comes up.

“If you wake up for few second from your “perfect Japan” dream”
I have never had, nor will I ever have, such a dream.

“LB should work on his super ego”
I am trying to improve it – but sometimes I still think that other people are right, and so there is obviously work left to be done…

we need to make sure authorities stay vigilant and take away our rights based on sound information and only when we are in immediate danger.

Notice here you admit that there are cases where blanket searches are acceptable.(・・・・only when we are immediate danger)
And you admitted before that you would have no problem if the police were just testing people entering clubs　in the U.K.
(do you think that the cops take “no I want to enter the club without taking the drug test” in good faith because that was taking place in U.K.?)
And in our case it is not accurate to say the cops are taking away our right.
You have right not to comply with the cops. They are not taking away the right.

they are public servants entrusted to uphold the law, and as such, they need to be examined on a constant basis and held accountable when they fail to follow correct procedure.

True.
And that’s why I asked earlier to check if the police forced people, if this practice is happening everywhere (—-where I live and visit, nothing of this kind is taking place), if they are doing racial profiling.

Some people are talking as if these facts were confirmed.
Some people are agitated or panicked by unreliable information again by the same group for so called human right activism for foreigners in Japan.
They are just irresponsibly propagating, fueling fear and anger among foreigners in Japan, doing no effective job.
I am sick and tired of it.
Let’s hope they’ll get down to the business this time.

You honestly believe that the police will take a “no” answer in good faith and let that person go or get a warrant. If you’re wrong, however, it’s really too late to complain about police overstepping their authority.

Remember, police are not good guys or bad guys – they are public servants entrusted to uphold the law, and as such, they need to be examined on a constant basis and held accountable when they fail to follow correct procedure.

And to answer your question about the airplane: we already know that the word ‘terrorist’ would mean all searches would be involuntary. This is ultimate erosion of personal rights, and exactly why we need to make sure authorities stay vigilant and take away our rights based on sound information and only when we are in immediate danger.

This is not a matter of Japan vs. other countries. This police control is wrong in Japan, it’s wrong in the US, and it’s wrong in the UK. I’m not really sure what the purpose of your links is – the fact that things are worse in other countries doesn’t make what happened in Roppongi acceptable

I didn’t claim that the case in roppongi was wrong, though I said some facts should be comfirmed. so I don’t have to justify this case by citing other “worse” cases.

I am citing them for reference. and I am citing them to block the discourse that fictinalize Japan by comparing fictionalized, say, Europe.

According to your logic he should comply with the check to make security happy – despite not having any reason to do the test in the first place?

I am afraid that the analogy fails.
It seems you are talking about the case of racial profiling.
And we are not talking about it, though I said it is one of the items that need to be comfirmed in this case.

The fundamental difference in our arguments is that you are saying there are times/circumstances when this behavior by police is acceptable, and I’m saying that blanket searches are never acceptable.

Right.

And in my opinion,it is not abnormal to comply with the cops when the good reasons exists even if you have the right not to do.
In fact, the customers at the Pub in U.K. we talked about complied with the police and took the drug test to enter the shop.
Or suppose, for instance, it turns out that it is most likely there is a terrorist on the plane you are on and that it is unknown which passenger. Suppose further the cop on the same plane asks the passengers to have him search everyone on the plane,
Even when people have no legal obligation to comply with the cop, I guess many passengers are willing to comply with him.
Why? probably because they reason the concern for the security and eliminating the possbility of the serious crime override their right not to comply with the cop in this extreme case.
In your opinion, blanket searches are never acceptable.
You might be exempt from criticisms legally, but in other respects I am not sure.

In our case,the situation is a bit different.
And there are several questions to be evlautated.
Is complying with the cops effective in reducing the crimes which are alleged to have been happning at the shops.
Does it the take much time?
Is the test reliable??
Is the presence limited to a very particular time and a very particular place which have been alleged to be rampant with the drug-relate crimes,
Are there good reason to suppose that this is the first step to the domino effct that will result in similar policing at any place, at any time.
etc.
Depending on how people evaluate and weigh these factors, some people consider it acceptable, others don’t.
Still others categorically or dogmatically might deny the practice at any place at any time.
In either case, people have choices, You are legally justified in complying the cops, and you are legally justified in not complying the cops.

Were people coerced? We don’t know. That is why I said whether they were coerced should be confirmed.

Is such practice socially acceptable?
My opinion is that it depends.
You seems to think it never.
(But in the case of the Pub in the U.K, where people have choices either to comply with the cop and enter the shop, or not to comply with the cop and visit other place, you said it was reasonable. and I am not sure how you evaluate the cop’s behavior on the plane I gave as a hypothesis, So I am not really sure what your opinion is in this regard)

We might be agree to disagree, or we can talk on. Either way you like. I comply with your choice.

After all, those people who are always complaining about their “civil rights” being taken away are in 99.9% nutjobs or potheads who get angry when you take their toy away, or don’t let them drink in your bar, but are probably too egocentric to even notice when a real diminishing of civil rights happens somewhere.

I an only repeat – Japan is not the US or Europe. They still have some pride and morals left. So please nutjobs and other Otaku-types, please don’t try to make it more like your (failed) home country.

Good news: no cops harassing anyone.

Does anyone know the time of day (hour and minute) that these drug tests occurred?

Personally I’ve never been stopped in Japan, I got a very high pay job and love Japan, but many friends have been stopped in the last years. I think probably this depends on where you live and hang out in Tokyo but “stop and search” foreigners started 5-6 years ago in Shibuya and Harajuku and only recently it has been extended to Japanese young people…

Probably something that many “NJ right wingers” on Japan Probe (like Jimbo and LB) forget is that piss tests can be false-positive for many medications + passive smoked happenend weeks (sometimes months) before can be traced like positive.

If you wake up for few second from your “perfect Japan” dream could you try to imagine the consequences of a false positive to your life?!

PS I feel LB should work on his super ego since calling BOINGBOING an “idiot media outlet” is… okashii!!

And look at your links again -

UK:
historically failed tool of “stop and search”

US:
If you give them permission or they have reasonable grounds to suspect drugs are on the property, they do not need a search warrant

This is not a matter of Japan vs. other countries. This police control is wrong in Japan, it’s wrong in the US, and it’s wrong in the UK. I’m not really sure what the purpose of your links is – the fact that things are worse in other countries doesn’t make what happened in Roppongi acceptable.

On the reasons I mentioned above, I am inclined to take it in a situation like that. I’d rather clarify the suspicion and make the cop happy and help to reduce the crimes than making drug-dealers/takers happy, albeit indirectly.

And let me give you another situation to put your quote in perspective:

A man in his 20s with a Middle Eastern appearance is stopped at the airport. Terrorism is a problem around the world and the security guards want to make sure this man is not a terrorist so they want him to comply with an invasive background check before boarding the plane. According to your logic he should comply with the check to make security happy – despite not having any reason to do the test in the first place?

he made fools like you to believe there are situations where a drug test can be forced without a warrant.

He certainly did not. Fools like me was led to beliieve that they don’t need a warrant if people cooporate, they need a warrant if they don’t cooporate.
It seems Debito also understood that way.

What are a person’s (foreign or native) rights in Japan if we are “randomly selected” and asked for a urine sample? I know the police have the right to ask us for ID but can they actually demand bodily fluids?

– They need a warrant. But not if you cooperate and agree to the test.
debito.org/?p=3730#comment-179716

Was Teshima wrong?

If you can find in you book a case where they can force drug tests without a warrant, feel free to write here.

Well I can’t and nobody is saying the cop can force people to take drug tests without a warrant.
He only said,

ME: But if they give you their permission for a sample, you don’t need a warrant?
TESHIMA: If they cooperate, we don’t need a warrant.

Could you tell us the parts he said the cops can force people to take drug tests without a warrant.
And also could you tell us how they made people believe they have legal obligation to take drug tests?

BTW. Don’t get emotional stereo.

. We need to expect that they are working to actually investigate situations and not just set up blanket testing locations. If they have reason to believe someone is breaking a crime, they need to approach that *individual*.

Yes, in general, right.
But when the place is alleged to be a place for drug dealings, it is not unreasonable for the police to ask people there for the test on a voluntary basis.
And please note I am not saying it is always reasonable at any place, but I am saying in a situation mentioned, it is not unreasonable.
And for people who happen to be there, there are choices; either you walk away(if the cop has no warrant), or you undertake the test.

On the reasons I mentioned above, I am inclined to take it in a situation like that. I’d rather clarify the suspicion and make the cop happy and help to reduce the crimes than making drug-dealers/takers happy, albeit indirectly.

May I ask what your reason is for refusing the test in a situation like that?

Think about that – the police in Roppongi were testing people leaving the club. There is no refusing without penalty,

As I said and as HO on Debito’s blog said, you can walk away if the cop didn’t have a warrant. There is no penalty for that.

On a side note, U.K police and U.S. police have more power in this respect.

U.K

We should all be concerned that Sir Paul Stephenson, the new commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, is advocating the continued and widespread use of the historically failed tool of “stop and search”, which allows the police to act without the need for “reasonable grounds” as in Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

U.S.

If you give them permission or they have reasonable grounds to suspect drugs are on the property, they do not need a search warrant. They also have special powers under the Arms Act to enter in emergencies involving firearms. Otherwise they need a search warrant to search your house
http://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.communitylaw.org.nz%2Ffileadmin%2Fdocuments%2Fpolice_powers_to_stop_and_search.doc&ei=F7jfSKLIJoes6wOlm-WLBA&usg=AFQjCNF7OV8K8cPpHyykw6QTjxyj63G7ZQ&sig2=geNcOg0abLP9iTyWGkW2Gg

I would have no problem if the police testing people entering clubs – this gives everyone a choice to enter or go to a different club.

To the contrary, I would have problem if the police is testing people entering the club which has no allegation for the drug dealings. There is no good cause in limiting my freedom to enter the shop and in helping and working with the cops and it is obstructing the business.

That is the big lie the police officer made.
Under current laws of Japan, there is no situation where a police officer can force a drug test without a warrant.

But he made fools like you to believe there are situations where a drug test can be forced without a warrant. What is the difference between “forcing drug tests” and “making people to believe they have legal obligation to take drug tests”? Nothing.

If you can find in you book a case where they can force drug tests without a warrant, feel free to write here.

Even if you are not a drug-taker, you can refuse it. But refusing it might make them suspicious of me. I don’t like that.

This is exactly why we need to expect more from our police officers. We need to expect that they are working to actually investigate situations and not just set up blanket testing locations. If they have reason to believe someone is breaking a crime, they need to approach that *individual*. Just because it’s easier to set of testing facilities doesn’t mean it’s appropriate.

And the really interesting point about the UK link you posted is that they were testing for drugs to permit entry into the club. What that means is that if you don’t want to be tested, you don’t have to enter the club. Think about that – the police in Roppongi were testing people leaving the club. There is no refusing without penalty, and that is why this is such a severe breach of protocol and why this must absolutely be prevented. I would have no problem if the police testing people entering clubs – this gives everyone a choice to enter or go to a different club.

Let’s look at what we have. Apparently, the cops staked out an area very near the most notorious nightspots in Roppongi, nightspots which are quite well-known as being, ummm shady. It also happens that most of the customers who visit the establishments in question are foreigners. Yes, there are places where Japanese do illegal drugs but, as Ken Y-N said, if these were also being targeted it would unlikely to be known to readers of websites and blogs such as this.

As far as I know, the presence was limited to a very particular time and a very particular place. So we are not seeing a willy-nilly targeting of NJs on Tokyo streets, as some responses seem to have assumed or be unwittingly propagating, but rather a very specific targeting. I would guess (and I admit that this is speculation) that maintaining a very heavy presence by these establishments is an attempt keep customers away from dubious areas to bleed them OR will serve as a basis for a fully-fledged raid if drugs are found. This is a pretty common police scenario.

There are also no reports yet of force or coercion. As far as I know, all urine submissions were cooperative (maybe involving an element of intimidation in such a situation or not being aware of the right to refuse). So the cops have not broken any laws. They are perfectly entitled to ASK you for a urine sample. Hell, I’M entitled to ask you for a urine sample. You are, however, free to refuse me just as you may refuse the cops (unless they have a warrant). So far, I have not heard of a refusal followed by force, threats, or an arrest. Speculation that refusal would be interpreted as obstruction of justice remains just that, speculation.

If I’m mistaken in the above please feel free to respond. But in the interest of maintaining our veracity among Japanese people, let’s not misrepresent things.

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
-Benjamin Franklin