Police rounding up foreigners in Tokyo and making them take drug tests?
Arudou Debito has received reports from that police in Tokyo have been rounding up foreigners as they leave bars in Roppongi/Shibuya and making them take urine tests. A few posters on the Gaijin Pot forums have also mentioned the practice.
Debito apparently called the Azabu Police Department today and confirmed that the drug tests were taking place. Here is part of the transcript he has posted:
DEBITO: Do you have warrants to ask for urine samples?
OFFICER TESHIMA: I don’t have to answer that. Depends on the situation.
DEBITO: But you can’t ask for urine samples without a warrant, right?
OFFICER TESHIMA: We don’t always need a warrant. Depends on the situation.
DEBITO: What situations do you not need a warrant?
OFFICER TESHIMA: I don’t have to answer that.
DEBITO: But if they give you their permission for a sample, you don’t need a warrant?
OFFICER TESHIMA: If they cooperate, we don’t need a warrant.
DEBITO: What if they don’t cooperate?
OFFICER TESHIMA: I’m not going to answer that.
The police officer said that tests were taking place, but he denied that only foreigners were being targeted.
Even if they aren’t just targeting foreigners, it is pretty troubling to think that police are attempting to take urine samples from people on the street. Hopefully someone in the media will contact the police and try to get more information.
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God, this is unbelievable. Where do the orders come from for this kind of thing?
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I was stopped and searched by the cops barely half hour ago.
I was walking back from Roppongi gym to my apartment in Minami Azabu, and three cops stopped me, this was the third time by the way. All three times the common theme was I had not shaven for two days and I was carrying a gym bag. Interestingly, when I walk back from station with my suit they usually bow.
I speak fluent Japanese, and had a big fight with the guys.
I think they are looking for Iranian guys with drugs. I am an Indian American from NY, so fit the profile.
In some sense, the people are shallow, in some sense they are naive. I just pity them. They are not racist, they just don’t know any other race. It was kind of funny me shouting at three policemen in Japanese at the corner of LoI building and everyone watching it. Unimaginable in New York.
I still love the country.
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Somewhere, surely, there must be a policy framework that the police are following. The question is how to get it into the public domain, a task which is sadly probably very difficult indeed.
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OK, this is precisely the kind of situation where we need someone like Debito. He’s been chompin’ at the bit for a long time.. LET ‘EM OFF THE CHAIN! GO DEBITO! GET ‘EM!
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Yawn.
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Yawn?
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Smellz like Election Time once again
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I wonder if this has anything to do with those two JETs from Okinawa…
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The question is, “Is it taking place in any place on the street?”
It is not uncommon that the police raid a pub for drug dealings.
And Roppongi seems notorious for drug deals and drug related incidents.
As a side note, U.S. Embassy warns Americans to avoid Roppongi bars due to drink-spiking increase
http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/us-embassy-warns-americans-to-avoid-roppongi-bars-due-to-drink-spiking-increase
As far as I know, British and Australian embassy also warned it.
As for the urine test, as the police said, they don’t need a warrant if they cooperate. And as HO on Debito’s blog said, ” if a police officer asks for a urine test, ask him if he has a warrant issued by a judge addressed to you.(令状はありますか。Reijou wa arimasuka?) If he does not, you can walk away.”
I wouldn’t visit this kind of establishments anyway, and I would cooporate if I happened to be in such a place and if the police asked.
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The point is that police is forcing urine tests without warrants. That is what outrages people here.
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Let’s not assume what is not said. Or did I miss the part in which somebody claimed the police was forcing without warrant?
BTW as another reference
Anyway the problem is
1)whether police is forcing the urine test without the warrant.
2)whether police are asking/forcing the urine test randomly on the street in any place.
3)whether police are doing racial profiling as in other “totalitan” states.
These are what should be confirmed i.m.o.
You can outrage people by unreliable information as someone has been doing, but I don’t think that is wise.
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Ponta, the police is drug testing random people who just came out of a bar. How can they have a warrant issued by a judge?
Who would think these people are not forced? Do you think a man who had a good time at a bar and just came out of it would “voluntarily” ride on a police van and take a drug test at a police station?
You should be wary of these “voluntarily” things argued by the police. This would lead to “voluntarily house searched”, or “voluntarily arrested”. As the constitution says, “The freedom and rights guaranteed to the people by this constitution shall be maintained by the constant endeavor of the people.”
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If I were there, and I didn’t take drug, I would be willing to have a test.
The point is where and how the police is conducting the test.
Community people are willing to help and work with the police if it will decrease the crimes, especially when the place is notorious for the crimes.
The police goes too far and people should resist if they are conducting the test, say, at the park or at the station where no crime has ever reported.
Exactly.
At the same time we should be wary of these “forced” things argued by the criminals.
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Ponta, you’re more than welcome to submit yourself to a test, but this is not normal behavior. Police need to have probable cause before they can make an arrest or search your belongings. If they have reason to believe you have committed a crime, they should obtain a warrant and arrest you or let you go.
You are correct, the community should be willing to help reduce crime, but there is absolutely no difference between a public park, a station, or a club. Your rights don’t stop just because there is more crime in area A than area B.
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As I said, it depends on the situation.
For instance, you have to go through the gate to check if you have metal or something to visit government office if they raise the national terror alert level. I think it is reasonable. They don’t need a warrant though they violates the right to privacy.
There is a difference when some place are known to be infested with crimes and others are not.
Absolutely correct.
But there are cases where it is reasonable to cooperate with the government and having the right does not necessarily means you can’t corporate. And there are cases where it is more reasonalbe to cooporate.
Sure this is a point of controversy.
For instance some residents are for setting up surveillance camera, working with the police, saying that it will increase the security of the town, others are against it, saying it is an violation of privacy.
Some people say you should never trust the police, others say in general you can trust them.
In case of Roppoingi, there have been several reports on newspapers to the effect that drug dealings are rampant.
My tips for friends are not to visit such establishments.
If you were residents near the Roppoingi, work with the police.
If you happened to be there, not knowing the situation, and if you were asked to be tested, ask the cop why they are doing it.
Suppose she says they are doing more policing since there are drug-related incidents recently around there.(let’s suppose they are not lying, and I don’t mistrust cops that much.)
And here is my rough calculation.
These tests are mostly reliable and the chances of errors are pretty low.If you are not a drug-taker, it will be finished soon and it is reasoble to suppose that such policing is effective in reducing the crimes in a place like that.
I think that is roughly how most of the customers at the Pub in “totalitarian” U.K. on the article I linked reasoned.
Even if you are not a drug-taker, you can refuse it. But refusing it might make them suspicious of me. I don’t like that.
And if everyone act like me in a situation like this, it will make police work harder and more carefully and sure ,that’s their job. You might be happy but it will make drug-dealers happier too. I don’t like that.
Here someone might disagree and say it is the police’s job to respect his right fully AND to round up the drug dealers. I would say if a little bit of my cooperation will make the criminals unhappy, I would rather work with the cops.
We can agree to disagree here.
Now suppose they are testing in a place that I know is free from crimes. The story is different. Is it not attempting to reduce the crimes. It is just doing policing for the sake of policing. In that case I’ll refuse.
But honestly I’ve never seen the police testing people in a place l live and I visit.
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This is exactly why we need to expect more from our police officers. We need to expect that they are working to actually investigate situations and not just set up blanket testing locations. If they have reason to believe someone is breaking a crime, they need to approach that *individual*. Just because it’s easier to set of testing facilities doesn’t mean it’s appropriate.
And the really interesting point about the UK link you posted is that they were testing for drugs to permit entry into the club. What that means is that if you don’t want to be tested, you don’t have to enter the club. Think about that – the police in Roppongi were testing people leaving the club. There is no refusing without penalty, and that is why this is such a severe breach of protocol and why this must absolutely be prevented. I would have no problem if the police testing people entering clubs – this gives everyone a choice to enter or go to a different club.
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Yes, in general, right.
But when the place is alleged to be a place for drug dealings, it is not unreasonable for the police to ask people there for the test on a voluntary basis.
And please note I am not saying it is always reasonable at any place, but I am saying in a situation mentioned, it is not unreasonable.
And for people who happen to be there, there are choices; either you walk away(if the cop has no warrant), or you undertake the test.
On the reasons I mentioned above, I am inclined to take it in a situation like that. I’d rather clarify the suspicion and make the cop happy and help to reduce the crimes than making drug-dealers/takers happy, albeit indirectly.
May I ask what your reason is for refusing the test in a situation like that?
As I said and as HO on Debito’s blog said, you can walk away if the cop didn’t have a warrant. There is no penalty for that.
On a side note, U.K police and U.S. police have more power in this respect.
U.K
U.S.
To the contrary, I would have problem if the police is testing people entering the club which has no allegation for the drug dealings. There is no good cause in limiting my freedom to enter the shop and in helping and working with the cops and it is obstructing the business.
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And please note MikeGuest’s comment (2009-07-03 09:40:00 ) at the bottom.
He sums up the situation pretty well.
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The fundamental difference in our arguments is that you are saying there are times/circumstances when this behavior by police is acceptable, and I’m saying that blanket searches are never acceptable.
And look at your links again -
UK:
historically failed tool of “stop and search”
US:
If you give them permission or they have reasonable grounds to suspect drugs are on the property, they do not need a search warrant
This is not a matter of Japan vs. other countries. This police control is wrong in Japan, it’s wrong in the US, and it’s wrong in the UK. I’m not really sure what the purpose of your links is – the fact that things are worse in other countries doesn’t make what happened in Roppongi acceptable.
And let me give you another situation to put your quote in perspective:
A man in his 20s with a Middle Eastern appearance is stopped at the airport. Terrorism is a problem around the world and the security guards want to make sure this man is not a terrorist so they want him to comply with an invasive background check before boarding the plane. According to your logic he should comply with the check to make security happy – despite not having any reason to do the test in the first place?
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I didn’t claim that the case in roppongi was wrong, though I said some facts should be comfirmed. so I don’t have to justify this case by citing other “worse” cases.
I am citing them for reference. and I am citing them to block the discourse that fictinalize Japan by comparing fictionalized, say, Europe.
I am afraid that the analogy fails.
It seems you are talking about the case of racial profiling.
And we are not talking about it, though I said it is one of the items that need to be comfirmed in this case.
Right.
And in my opinion,it is not abnormal to comply with the cops when the good reasons exists even if you have the right not to do.
In fact, the customers at the Pub in U.K. we talked about complied with the police and took the drug test to enter the shop.
Or suppose, for instance, it turns out that it is most likely there is a terrorist on the plane you are on and that it is unknown which passenger. Suppose further the cop on the same plane asks the passengers to have him search everyone on the plane,
Even when people have no legal obligation to comply with the cop, I guess many passengers are willing to comply with him.
Why? probably because they reason the concern for the security and eliminating the possbility of the serious crime override their right not to comply with the cop in this extreme case.
In your opinion, blanket searches are never acceptable.
You might be exempt from criticisms legally, but in other respects I am not sure.
In our case,the situation is a bit different.
And there are several questions to be evlautated.
Is complying with the cops effective in reducing the crimes which are alleged to have been happning at the shops.
Does it the take much time?
Is the test reliable??
Is the presence limited to a very particular time and a very particular place which have been alleged to be rampant with the drug-relate crimes,
Are there good reason to suppose that this is the first step to the domino effct that will result in similar policing at any place, at any time.
etc.
Depending on how people evaluate and weigh these factors, some people consider it acceptable, others don’t.
Still others categorically or dogmatically might deny the practice at any place at any time.
In either case, people have choices, You are legally justified in complying the cops, and you are legally justified in not complying the cops.
Were people coerced? We don’t know. That is why I said whether they were coerced should be confirmed.
Is such practice socially acceptable?
My opinion is that it depends.
You seems to think it never.
(But in the case of the Pub in the U.K, where people have choices either to comply with the cop and enter the shop, or not to comply with the cop and visit other place, you said it was reasonable. and I am not sure how you evaluate the cop’s behavior on the plane I gave as a hypothesis, So I am not really sure what your opinion is in this regard)
We might be agree to disagree, or we can talk on. Either way you like. I comply with your choice.
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Well, all I can really say is that I hope you’re right.
You honestly believe that the police will take a “no” answer in good faith and let that person go or get a warrant. If you’re wrong, however, it’s really too late to complain about police overstepping their authority.
Remember, police are not good guys or bad guys – they are public servants entrusted to uphold the law, and as such, they need to be examined on a constant basis and held accountable when they fail to follow correct procedure.
And to answer your question about the airplane: we already know that the word ‘terrorist’ would mean all searches would be involuntary. This is ultimate erosion of personal rights, and exactly why we need to make sure authorities stay vigilant and take away our rights based on sound information and only when we are in immediate danger.
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I honestly believe that the police will sometimes take no answer in good faith and other times in bad faith.
I am fully aware that they can abuse 公務執行妨害（the obstruction of public business) to arrest someone.
At the same time, you go too far when you assume they are always abusing it.
Notice here you admit that there are cases where blanket searches are acceptable.(・・・・only when we are immediate danger)
And you admitted before that you would have no problem if the police were just testing people entering clubs in the U.K.
(do you think that the cops take “no I want to enter the club without taking the drug test” in good faith because that was taking place in U.K.?)
And in our case it is not accurate to say the cops are taking away our right.
You have right not to comply with the cops. They are not taking away the right.
True.
And that’s why I asked earlier to check if the police forced people, if this practice is happening everywhere (—-where I live and visit, nothing of this kind is taking place), if they are doing racial profiling.
Some people are talking as if these facts were confirmed.
Some people are agitated or panicked by unreliable information again by the same group for so called human right activism for foreigners in Japan.
They are just irresponsibly propagating, fueling fear and anger among foreigners in Japan, doing no effective job.
I am sick and tired of it.
Let’s hope they’ll get down to the business this time.
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The reason I feel this is acceptable is because I still have the option to forgo the test and go to a different club. Think of it as one of the conditions of buying a ticket. If the club starts to notice a drop in patrons they will complain to police and try to have the tests stopped. I was not referring to a scenario that you mentioned where someone still tries to enter the club but without taking the test.
And do you honestly believe that if the police have gone to the trouble to do blanket drug testing on club patrons that they will accept no as an answer?
Police: Ok, you’re next. Time for your urine test.
Person A: Ok.
Police: Ok, you’re next. Time for your urine test.
Person B: No. Do you have a warrant?
Police: No, ok, next. Time for your urine test.
Does that even sound like a remotely possible scenario?
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In any case, after all you admit there are cases where it is okay for the cops to ask people for the drug test and there are in fact cases where people voluntarily take it.
The actual scenario close to yours might be something like, (supposing I Person B does not want to take the test)
Person B: No. Do you have a warrant?
Police: No, but could you corporate?
Person B: Sorry, no
Police might just let him go but suppose that the cop wanted him to take the test.
Police: Hmmm, you took illegal drug or something, didn’t you?
Person: No comment, can I go or should I call the lawyer?
That will settle it.
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Of course the police are allowed to test for drugs. But there is a huge difference between blanket testing and testing as terms for entry. It’s like an EULA in software. If you don’t like the terms of the agreement you can say no and find different software to use.
This whole Roppongi controversy is because the police are supposedly doing this to club patrons leaving the club. It stinks like a police raid without warrants.
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First and foremost, the case in Roppongi is not the same as the one in the UK. Leaving and entering the club are totally different things.
It’s more like this:
Either you take the test AND enter the club OR refuse and find another club.
In case of roppoingi, either you take the test AND go home OR hope the police let you go home. This is a crucial point to understand.
And yes, we’ll never know the facts I suppose, but this above point is why this so egregious.
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In case of the club in UK, in a sense, the invasive nature of the police’s behavior is harsher. It seems you can’t enter the club without taking the test even if you want to enter without taking the test. And it is likely, strictly speaking, they had no legal obligation to take the test to enter the club. Furthermore, note still there are people who conformed this temporary rule on a voluntary basis.
In case of Roppoingi, you can leave the club without taking the test if you so choose.
Either you take the test AND enter the station OR refuse and find another station to ride a train. Is that okay?
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I am asking the question because I think we are in agreement to some extent and I want to make sure what our difference is.
You said that you would have no problem with the cop’s behavior at the club in U.K.
But the police’s behavior is outrageous if the club has had no trouble with illegal drug before, isn’t it?
Suppose the police start standing in front of several clubs which are free from the crimes to test people, is it okay because people still have choice to find another club? I don’t think so.
So we agree that under some circumstances it is okay for the cop to ask people to take the drug test.
Suppose the police start testing people as a condition of entry to several public houses which have been alleged to be related to drug dealing. It seems you would say it is okay because there are another club to visit.
Now, both of us agree that it is vital that people have choice.
In case of U.K. in one sense people have the choice:you can find another club. In another sense,people have no choice; supposedly you can not enter the club without taking the test. There is no HOPE to enter the club without taking the test. People e who wanted to enter the club were forced to take the drug test.In this sense, it is more invasive in that they are taking away the right to enter the club without taking the test.
(, provided people in U.K have the right to enter the club without taking the drug test),
In case of roppongi, people have choice. People have the right to refuse the test. The problem arises if the police force people to take the test. But so far no report of being forced has been made.
This is where we disagree.
You say the case in U.K. is okay but the case in roppoingi is not okay.
(And this is where I sort of sense your bias toward Japan–and perhaps toward U.K.too—I might be mistaken.)
I say the police’s behavior would be wrong if it turned out,
it was happening everywhere.
the police forced
the police was racially profiling.
And under these particular circumstances, I think people’s behavior to take the drug test if asked is not abnormal. you think it is.
But perhaps we probably agree that we need more facts confirmed.
Let’s hope they start constructive business rather than just collecting and spreading the rumors while rejecting to post retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, factually incorrect.
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I find it pretty astounding that you would actually think I’m biased against Japan based on the above points. I also find it equally appalling how easily you would give up your rights, especially considering that this is Japan and presumably the country of your birth.
I don’t know how I can make this any clearer. I’m going to use your exact quotes to show you:
You do realize we’re talking about entering a club, right? All I have to do is look at the line of people entering the club, see that the police are testing for drugs, and if I don’t like that, find a new club. If I’m stupid enough to get in line and then refuse the test, then I might run into problems. But generally speaking, the worst case scenario is that I don’t get in the club.
Now in Roppongi:
In Roppongi, these tests were supposedly being done as patrons leave the club – unlike the UK situation, there is no way for you to avoid a confrontation with police – thus, the ‘blanket’ search. And based solely on your quote, think about this for a second – if you run into one of those police that abuse their power, you are now going to jail. You can only hope that you get a reasonable officer who lets you go even if you refuse the test.
UK – not getting into the club
Roppongi – getting arrested
We don’t have all of the details in this situation, but the simple fact that police are going out and requesting drug tests is a gross violation of privacy and unwarranted. They are conducting these tests on the sole premise that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time – that’s not police work, that’s laziness. How in the world can you equate not entering a club with not being able to return home because you’re going to jail?
Ponta, you clearly hate Debito and his website, but since he was the first person to report on this topic you have have immediately sided with the police on this, and would give up your rights to police simply because you’re sick of Debito’s bias. This has nothing to do with foreigners which is why it’s stupid that Debito is bringing this up. But, this has everything to do with the fact that police have overstepped their bounds instead of actually doing their jobs.
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Let me make it clear again that I am not for the blanket search.
We don’t know much about this case, and we don’t know that they were forced, and we don’t even know it was blanket soppings of the patrons who left the bar as you seem to assume.
That is why we should check the facts.
Now, as for the kind operation that I think is reasonable, I repeat.
I am not against this kind of operation, and if I should be there, I’d comply with the cop.
May I ask what’s your opinion about this kind of operation?
Now let’s look at the “report” on Debito blog.
If you remember, Odeon is the place where foreigners as well as Japanese were arrested for illegal drug in May. The place is limited to the place around the clubs which are alleged to be dealing with illegal drugs. The time of the operation was in the early morning when average men and women were not in action yet. For the reason I said above, I am not against it as long as they were not forced, they are not racially profiled.
We don’t know. That is why I said again and again people should check the facts before they make fuss.
Let me ask. Do people not have the right to enter a club they like without taking the drug test in U.K.?
Do you think it is okay for the police to make people to take the drug test as a condition of the entry for a club which has no allegation drug dealings?
Police can abuse their power any time, And I am not an anarchist. I trust them as well I am cautious of their abuse.
In U.K. it seems they demanded. In roppoongi, so far, they asked
And yet would you have no problem in case of the U.K.?
You can’t. But who couldn’t ‘t return home? though illegal drug dealers/takers might be in jail in both case of entering and leaving a club.
It seems you are talking a bit in favor of drug dealers/takers and as if the police were always abusing their power.
The time and the place of the operation was limited. As far as we know, the operation was supposedly made to inconvenience as few innocent people as possible. And I say under this special circumstance, I’d comply with the cop if I should be there.
My reason for approving this kind of operation has nothing to do with Debito.
And as I said again and again I hope they’ll do effective job this time without cheating. But to do so, they need facts.
The fact that the police sometimes conduct urine test, the fact that the police need a warrant if people asked don’t corporate, they don’t need a warrant if they cooperate does not constitute illegality.
I am saying,to do effective job, people should check the facts if people were forced, if this kind of operation is happening everywhere, if they were racially profiled.
Now if they are against the kind operation of asking for drug test on voluntary basis that is limited to very particular place and time to reduce the related crime, good, though my opinion is different.
But yes I hate his tactics. And I think his blog is like 2channel. The both sometimes have the elements of truth, but at the same time. they are filled with unreliable and misleading information, irresponsible messages, rumors, and hatred.And ironically his blog is perhaps most exclusionary Japan blog while 2channel is open to everyone.
I hope somebody else set up an organization to provide useful information and a open forum where Japanese and foreigners can discuss frankly the problem facing English-speaking people in Japan.
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But you do. Because unless the police actually see someone using drugs, they shouldn’t have the right to stop someone. There’s no probable cause. And I’m sorry, but visiting a particular club or going to a particular part of town doesn’t mean you are a drug user. You keep saying you understand the searches because there is a lot of drug activity in that part of town, but let’s say there has been a string of break-ins in your hometown. Does that mean they should start fingerprinting people in the neighborhood? Your argument is ‘yes’ they should. A better use of police work would have been to send undercover agents into the club to look for actual drug users/dealers – and then they could have arrested actual criminals with a warrant.
People in the UK should be able to enter a club without taking a drug test, and no I don’t think it’s okay for police to do tests on people entering a club, but by doing this on entry the police are making it a voluntary choice. The legality of their actions is extremely questionable, but at least it’s on the way in and not on the way out. If Japanese police wanted to search people on the way in, I would think it is just as crappy as what’s going on in the UK, but at least patrons could take their business to other clubs. Searching patrons on the way out adds a very high level of intimidation because it’s easy to fear that you’ll never go home if you get arrested. And just for the record, 6am to 8am is normal if you go to clubs. Trains stop in Japan and most people will stick around until the club closes. Don’t you think it would have been better if the police got a warrant to search the club while it was still open?
Well, first of all, you really need to stop posting links for situations in other countries. They are unrelated to what’s going on in Japan, and honestly don’t help discuss the problems people are facing in Japan. If you’re sick of people saying, “It’s better in my country,” then you should also be sick of saying, “It’s worse in your country.”
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Actually they are not asking anyone but the people leaving the club that has been alleged to do with drug dealings.
No, but they might ask suspects to fingerprint,(though technically that won’t be necessary.)
Here you are being a bit tricky, As I said before, in one sense they have a choice, in another sense they don’t.
As you admit, people have the right to enter without taking a drug test, but in U.K. case the police are depriving people of the right. You are looking at the case in U.K, in a positive light. and you are reading too much in negative light into the case in roppoingi. In case of roppongi, the cop are not depriving the right to leave without taking a drug test.
And it seems to me you are talking rather in view of illegal drug usersr than general public. Sure illegal drug users would be happy if the cop asked them to take drug test as a condition for the entry rather than being asked to take it when leaving because they could just choose not to enter the club.
General public are concerned about illegal drugs. And they know it is sometimes extremely hard to track down the drug-users.
I.M.O. people are not worried by this kind of the police’ operation because they know it won’t happen anywhere except for the very limited place at the very limited time for good reasons, they will start worried about it if it turns out the cops are forcing the test, if there is a sign that it will happen more often at irrelevant places, if the cops are racially profiling. People who are worried most by this particular type of operation are probably drug users around the clubs in questions.
Most people don’t stick around a club until 8 am. Most of them go home much earlier. They have things to do the next day. That is one reason I think people wouldn’t consider the operation unreasonable.
That is a good way to deal with the problem. But this kind of operation, as I said, is effective in sending the message to the people who visit the club for illegal drug and to the people in town who are concerned about the illegal drugs ,besides serving as a basis for a fully-fledged raid.
They are related because it gives a wider perspective on the related issue for a discussion on the problem people are facing in Japan.
Point taken.
I hope some people will stop talking down as if their country does not have similar problems.
I have absolutely no intention to say your country is worse, nor Japan is better, nor your country’s injustice justifies Japan’s injustice.
I used to ask people to talk as if Japan was your own country. That was the indirect way to ask not to use a double standard. Some people didn’t get the message. So I started posting links for situations in other countries to block the discourse that fictionally narrate Japan—i.e., without checking the facts, without understanding the institution, the practice, etc.—-in contrast with fictionally glorified Europe (and north America).
When i present the link, the flow of a discussion somehow changes in such a way they take the problem as their own problem and start presenting a balanced view. Besides, somehow sometimes their own bias is revealed.
So I’ll post links for situations in other countries when I see it fit. Just take a look at it as a reference in wider perspective. Just because it is worse in your own country doesn’t not mean you cannot criticize Japan’s practice if you are willing to criticize both and don’t use a double standard. Sometimes some people look at their own country/their civilization in an unreasonably positive light and Japan in an unreasonably negative light— That is wrong.
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Like you said, we don’t have enough information, so we don’t actually know if this is true. They could be arresting everyone who is refusing a test. You’re just assuming they aren’t.
This is a very important point to my argument. It’s important that we protect the rights of all individuals at all times, and not just when it’s convenient. You might say this will just lead to more crime, but this is where the police are supposed to be investigating and looking for actual crimes taking place – they can get a warrant and perform a raid, they can make use of undercover agents, etc. Blanket tests are not part of a proper investigation because they are not based on probable cause – visiting an area that has a history of crime does not mean that everyone in that area is a criminal, it only means that police have to be more diligent with their investigations.
You keep mentioning that you would be bothered if these kinds of police tests were taking place all over, but what happens is that once a precedent has been set, it creeps into other areas. So what is acceptable now in Roppongi at 6am might be acceptable at 3pm in Shibuya next week. People who complain are portrayed as the criminals, and authorities will say, “You have nothing to fear if you’re doing nothing wrong.” You have even done the same thing by mentioning I’m thinking too much like an illegal drug user with my arguments.
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Thanks, Kevin, I think we’ve had a good discussion. Looking at the last comment. perhaps we can agree to disagree.
Right. That is why i’ve kept saying from the beginning the facts should be checked.
I know there are people who insist like that.
That’s why I told at 2009-07-03 01:07:52
“Here someone might disagree and say it is the police’s job to respect his right fully AND to round up the drug dealers. I would say if a little bit of my cooperation will make the criminals unhappy, I would rather work with the cops.
We can agree to disagree here.”
As I said at 2009-07-03 20:52:59, this is another point people evaluate differently.
For my part, I see no sign that this is the fist step for the police to use it as a precedent to conduct the operation in other irrelevant areas, though as I said, the facts should be checked where and how often this kind of operation is happening.
Communications are difficult. Communications between people from different cultures are more difficult.
That is why we need a forum to discuss frankly and in a cool headed way.
A forum filled with unreliable information, misleading messages, lies, and hatred with no intention to retract will do more harm than good.
I thank Kevin to have presented good arguments, and I thank Japan Probe to have given us such an open forum.
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Yeah, thanks for the discussion. Your ideas have been interesting.
I actually don’t think this topic is related to foreigners at all, and more likely something that needs to be openly discussed on news variety programs. Similar to the debate over tasers in the US, I think Japanese people really need to decided how much is too much, and set clear limits on police authority. We’ve already seen what can happen if things go wrong with that man who was wrongly imprisoned for 17 years.
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Please leave England, Sweden or Swaziland out of this. The distraction to other countries is not constructive to our discussion of an issue affecting our community.
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Just let the society crumble.
The Police work within a certain government framework, as mentioned by Matt earlier –
and then you have Debito who goes around making it worse, by stirring the pot.
Does it matter who wins? Not really. If Debito wins, then rampant drunkenness and disorderly conduct and drug use will continue and people may feel somewhat freer, thinking that the world is a better place –
and then on the other hand, the government will be labeled as impotent and useless and so they will try to ramp up more searches and surveillance by passing a law quickly through the cabinet to allow police to search randomly for drugs when they suspect such behaviour that seem to be disturbing the peace.
Either way, Debito loses, because he’s one man who’s screaming and getting into people’s faces without using the law properly himself by taking it through the courts with compassionate people who really cares.
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Quote: “he’s one man who’s screaming and getting into people’s faces without using the law properly himself by taking it through the courts with compassionate people who really cares.”
You may be confusing Arudo with someone else. He has never promoted anyone breaking the law or ignoring the courts. Just the opposite in fact–he has extensive experience taking various issues “through the courts.”
I’ve seen him lecture and didn’t hear even one scream.
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Don’t cooperate. Fight the power. How do you say, “you got a warrant for this here urine officer?”
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It’s better to travel in tourist groups when you go to Japan. This way, things like this don’t happen.
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Traveling in a tourist group is for observation of a new place, you can’t really experience it this way. Anyway who says visible minorities in Japan are tourists? Many have lived here all their lives.
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“it is pretty troubling to think that police are attempting to take urine samples from people on the street. ”
Why the frak is that troubling? The police are doing something to stop druggos! For goodness sake! All these fraking idiots who are more concerned about their pride and ego.
I wish the police back in my home country of Australia had the power to do this – there’d be far less druggos walking the street. As it is, the police try to do their job but have whingers and whiners complaining every time that their “rights” have been violated! Frak! How long does it take to pee in a jar? Big fraking deal!
Help the police for a change, tell them what they can do to combat problems, give them helpful advice and support – I don’t see any foreigners doing this. They only seem to complain and whine.
And Debito, you don’t speak for me, you don’t represent me. You are a whiner and a wanker. Instead of working WITH the authorities all you do is work against them and complain. No wonder the Japanese have bad feelings towards foreigners. It must seem to them that instead of fitting into this society, all foreigners seem to do is try to go against it. They try to assert their own cultures over the one they’ve come to live in.
If you don’t like the way you are treated and appreciate that this is JAPAN and this is how JAPAN does things – frak off back home. Especially all those Americans with their big egos and their whining.
Learn to FIT in. Help out where you can. Give constructive criticism to those in power. Help them out.
Frak, stop your whining – don’t go to seedy bars, show more respect and be thankful that the police here are tough and trying to do something. If Australian police where this tough, then Australia wouldn’t be the shit hole it is now with druggos free to roam the street and sell their drugs. Frak, you even have designated needle use places and methadone clinics. It’s so frakked up.
The Japanese police have MY support 100%. I couldn’t care less for my apparent lack of “rights” when they show that they are doing something to stop crime and druggos. If you break the law, or use drugs you deserve to be punished and you have given up all your rights anyhow.
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quote: “I couldn’t care less for my apparent lack of “rights””
Let us know how that works out for you.
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Working fine, thanks. I’m on good terms with my local government and the police. I help out where I can. I follow the law of the land in which I live. If that means giving up certain “rights” that other countries seem to hold so dear, so be it. We’re talking about peeing in a bottle for frak sake!
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You know, it seems the fewer rights the people have and the more power the police have, the lower the crime rate. North Korea probably has no crime and no “frakin’ druggos” stumbling out of bars. Maybe no bars at all! That could be a paradise for some.
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Ponta is right.
>>Anyway the problem is
>>1)whether police is forcing the urine test without the >>warrant.
>>2)whether police are asking/forcing the urine test randomly >>on the street in any place.
>>3)whether police are doing racial profiling as in other >>“totalitan” states.
>>These are what should be confirmed i.m.o.
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“it is pretty troubling to think that police are attempting to take urine samples from people on the street. ”
Why is that troubling? The police are doing something to stop druggos! For goodness sake! All these idiots who are more concerned about their pride and ego.
I wish the police back in my home country of Australia had the power to do this – there’d be far less druggos walking the street. As it is, the police try to do their job but have whingers and whiners complaining every time that their “rights” have been violated! How long does it take to pee in a jar? Big deal!
Help the police for a change, tell them what they can do to combat problems, give them helpful advice and support – I don’t see any foreigners doing this. They only seem to complain and whine.
And Debito, you don’t speak for me, you don’t represent me. You are a whiner. Instead of working WITH the authorities all you do is work against them and complain. No wonder the Japanese have bad feelings towards foreigners. It must seem to them that instead of fitting into this society, all foreigners seem to do is try to go against it. They try to assert their own cultures over the one they’ve come to live in.
If you don’t like the way you are treated and appreciate that this is JAPAN and this is how JAPAN does things – go back home. Especially all those Americans with their big egos and their whining.
Learn to FIT IN. Help out where you can. Give constructive criticism to those in power. Help them out.
Stop your whining – don’t go to seedy bars, show more respect and be thankful that the police here are tough and trying to do something. If Australian police where this tough, then Australia wouldn’t be the shit hole it is now with druggos free to roam the street and sell their drugs. You even have designated needle use places and methadone clinics. It’s so stuffed up.
The Japanese police have MY support 100%. I couldn’t care less for my apparent lack of “rights” when they show that they are doing something to stop crime and druggos. If you break the law, or use drugs you deserve to be punished and you have given up all your rights anyhow.
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The police have my support too. However, this is a troubling scenario. I can’t think of too many other countries where police stop people on the street and ask for their urine. I have no trouble with drug testing, IF there is a reasonable suspicion that the person is under the influence. They may also (God forbid) consider going after the sources for the drugs, and not the end users.
Also, the police here have a pretty crappy reputation for keeping the chain of evidence secure. I would hate for my clean and pure urine to be mistakenly mixed up with that of a pot-head, and then suffer the consequences.
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DS – it is that in a nutshell. the reputation of the police here is quite sketchy. i would not want to be caught in one of the sweeps. i don`t go to bars but what is to stop them from spreading that “net” wide and far just because they can? that is a scary scenario.
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DS, that’s a good point; with reasonable suspicion, taking you to the station for further tests seems valid to me, such as when Kusanagi was nude and yelling in the park recently.
Two things that trouble me about the anti viewpoints are:
1) the “targetting foreigners” bit has no evidence yet that they are – they might be validly (or invalidly) targetting bars frequented by foreigners that are known for free availability of drugs, but are they specifically ignoring Japanese customers? There of course wouldn’t be similar reports on Debito of targetting bars frequented by Japanese.
2) IIRC from the sumo case, getting drugs detected in your bloodstream isn’t a criminal offense in itself – what if I’ve just eaten a lot of poppy seed rolls or have recently returned from a weekend in Amsterdam?
I think anyone who gets caught doing drugs (or breaking any other laws) should be appropriately punished, but just like the 200 police to catch 6 visa violaters recently, deporting a few disco biscuit abusers while putting no obvious effort into catching the bigger fish further up the line is not tackling the root of the problem, it’s just being seen to be doing something, and of course feeds the paranoia of many gaijin in Japan.
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>”with reasonable suspicion, taking you to the station for further tests seems valid to me”
That is not allowed under the laws of Japan. If there is reasonable suspicion (or a probable cause), police must first ask a judge to issue a warrant and then they can take the suspect to the station.
>”when Kusanagi was nude and yelling”
Public nudity itself is a crime, and police officers can arrest a perpetrator without a warrant if the crime is taking place in front of their eyes. This is called ‘genkohan taiho’.
If the police is abusing their power beyond what is allowed by the law as Debito reports, there should be some discipline.
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All Debito has confirmed is that
Let’s see how they handle this case this time.
Is it just another case of agitating people upon unreliable information again? or are they going to do something concrete and effective rather than just ranting that Japan sucks, Europe is better, Let’s get out of Japan, let’s prevent Tokyo Olympic.
And let’s hope they don’t cover up the facts this time and they substantiate their claims.
I for one, for instance, suspect that racial profiling might be operating in Japan as in other countries.
But I believe the way they presents the cases—rejecting to file a complaint, refusing to posts retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, disingenuous, hateful, factually incorrect or worse racist, and such—stands in the way of other sincere activism for human rights for foreigners in Japan.
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Ponta, Debito found much more than that.
A police officer is a public servant and he has to answer the questions about the rights of a suspect.
Did Mr. Teshima answer like a good public servant should? No. Rather he tried to disguise people to think they have to take a urine test if an officer demands. Why did not he answer when Debito asked if one is forced to take a urine test when the police does not have a warrant and the one refuses to take the test voluntarily? That is exactly the situation when a law enforcement officer has to tell people their rights. By not telling the truth, they are disguising and forcing people to take urine tests they need not take.
This must be changed.
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No, Teshima sounds too bureaucratic.
But at the same time Debito’s questions were too abstract.
Teshima’s answers imply that the police sometimes need a warrant, other times not, depending on the situation.
Teshima should have said, ”they can just walk away or they can be charged under 公務執行妨害 , depending on the situation. Look, I am busy, What’s the point? Be specific”
Frankly these questions can be answered if you read an introductory book on criminal procedure, don’t you think so?
Surely it would be much better if every officer at the Azabu Police Department kindly welcomed the general questions like that.
But that seems to be another topic.
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>”Teshima’s answers imply that the police sometimes need a warrant, other times not, depending on the situation.”
That is the big lie the police officer made.
Under current laws of Japan, there is no situation where a police officer can force a drug test without a warrant.
But he made fools like you to believe there are situations where a drug test can be forced without a warrant. What is the difference between “forcing drug tests” and “making people to believe they have legal obligation to take drug tests”? Nothing.
If you can find in you book a case where they can force drug tests without a warrant, feel free to write here.
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He certainly did not. Fools like me was led to beliieve that they don’t need a warrant if people cooporate, they need a warrant if they don’t cooporate.
It seems Debito also understood that way.
Was Teshima wrong?
Well I can’t and nobody is saying the cop can force people to take drug tests without a warrant.
He only said,
Could you tell us the parts he said the cops can force people to take drug tests without a warrant.
And also could you tell us how they made people believe they have legal obligation to take drug tests?
BTW. Don’t get emotional stereo.
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After saying all that, why do the police still ‘have your support?’ Are you a masochist?
“Clean and pure” urine??? Some of you guys are really creeping me out this morning.
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While this is another depressing and predictable step on the road to Japan becoming a totalitarian police state, I’m actually more depressed by Jimbo, who seems to relish the idea. Assume the position, Jimbo lad!
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I relish the idea as far as it makes Japan a better place all around. DC brought up some fine points, and I’m not advocating a police state. But the whiners and fraking idiots who just sit there and complain, oh no my rights have been violated, oh no they’re targeting foreigners.
Fraking stupid.
Police in Australia can stop and search and detain anyone they like. The law says that they need only suspicion that the person being stopped MAY have drugs/illegal items. I don’t see anyone complaining there. It should be as tough there as it is here. All these thin skinned whiners crying about their rights and their liberties. So fraking help the police – dob in the druggos, don’t support those bars (no patrons, no profits, no business). We should all work together to help resolve these issues not whinge and whine over them.
Oh my rights have been violated, oh my, oh me! Grow up! Toughen up!
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I fully expect you to send a cup of your own urine to police by the end of today. I mean, we all want to help get rid of drugs from our streets, right? And if you don’t send in your urine, then you’re definitely hiding something.
If there is as much drug use in Australia as you say, then that puts you right at the top of the list of suspicious individuals. How can we be sure that you didn’t bring something with you to Japan?
On a side note, I find it particularly ironic that you use the word frak in all of your posts. If you’re watching Battlestar Galactica, you of all people should understand the problems with a police state.
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Sir Jimbo,
You do realize that you’re simply whining about those who are whining, right?
“Fraking” is a fun word, right? I think so, when used in moderation, at least.
I think that your comparison of AUS police to JAP police is baseless here. Apples to oranges. What I believe is that police are to enforce the law within the limits of the law. If they are, in fact, targeting foreigners and doing forced unlawful testing, then the police are no better than citizens who indulge in illegal activities.
I love your use of the word “druggos.” It conjures up images of “Just Say No” assemblies in grade school and that “Winners Don’t Use Drugs” screen from the Bad Dudes arcade machine. After school TV specials of shaggy guys with needles in their arms passed out in some back alley. I think the “druggos” that the police are after in this case are simply otherwise upstanding taxpayers who indulge in some wacky tobaccy.
Oh, and telling Debito to go home if he doesn’t like Japan is pointless. You do know his story…right? He IS Japanese now, ergo Japan IS his home.
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You do realize that the Japanese police are breaking their own laws, which makes their actions vigilantism? Or are you saying that if their hearts are in the right place we should ignore that and trust them to do what’s right? That’s a little wide-eyed and Pollyanna-ish for a guy who thinks ‘druggos’ are around every corner.
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@ Jimbo
The only idiot is you:
I wish you get tested, get a false positive (not as rare as fascist citizens like you think) and get a free invitation to a 7 years long visit to Japanese Jail…
ps yes you are fascist since only idiots like you think that if you don’t have nothing to hide police should be allowed to visit your home and check your body liquids whenever they want… of course for people like you privacy is a “useless” concept invented by liberals to defend criminals…
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‘Police in Australia can stop and search and detain anyone they like. The law says that they need only suspicion that the person being stopped MAY have drugs/illegal items. I don’t see anyone complaining there.’
This moron does not represent Australia.
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Stop complaining. It’s no way near as bad as American or British police.
White people have nothing to complain about when it comes to injustice or lack of rights.
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You’re surpassing yourself with your racist, deluded rantings today, Eddie.
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Deluded?
Racist?
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how you can you not see that that’s racist?
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How can a fact be racist.
Stop devaluing the word “racist” as well, you people love to shout that word as soon as the smallest problem comes up.
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The point is that the police are violating peoples’ rights. If we allow it to happen then where will they stop? If they barge into your apartment at 3AM and search your personal belongings without a warrant – would that be acceptable?
Laws are in place for a reason. Don’t surrender your rights. Demand that they present a warrant before you cooperate even if you’re not hiding anything.
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Billy I agree but the problem is the police have too much power to override your rights, for example the daiyo kangoku system allows them to hold you with no charges for 23 days. People have to piss long before that.
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I was stopped today by the police in Shinjuku while riding my bicycle. I get stopped every other day. This time they asked to search my bag. I wasn’t hiding anything and wasn’t in the mood to be uncooperative so I said, “sure”
Then I asked them about the random drug testings. They said they’ve heard of it… so I asked them if a warrant is required. They both said, “No warrant is required.” I said well in USA you can’t demand a test unless you have a warrant. I asked if it was different in Japan. They said, “In Japan you don’t need a warrant if you have reason to believe the person is using drugs.” One officer said, “We would never ask you to take a test because we’re having a good conversation and you don’t seem like you use drugs.”
So they liked me and we had a good conversation = I didn’t have to take a test. If they didn’t like me or we didn’t have a good conversation then what?
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If you want to enjoy the conversation with the cops,that’s okay, but if you don’t like it, you should file a complaint.
I am not sure the actual words you and the cops used,
But the contrast is between 強制 and 任意
They should be interpreted as saying
“In Japan you don’t need a warrant to ask someone for the drug testif you have reason to believe the person is using drugs. and they cooperate”
That is why another officer said, “We would never ask you to take a test
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I think saying Debito has received “reports” (even though he uses that phrase) is giving way too much credence to this “story”. Debito asked for people to come forward if this has happened to them – so far, no-one has, or if they have he isn’t sharing that information. We have no confirmed reports that this is happening – yet people are forwarding this as if it is fact (and idiot internet outlets like boingboing are running it with “statistics” apparently pulled out of thin air), talking about pushing the IOC to drop Tokyo, calling embassies… based on what?
“Debito said someone told him this was happening.”
That’s all we got. That and a cop who was stuck on telephone watch stating the obvious:
The cops are “cracking down on drug use” – I wouldn’t expect them to say “Actually, we’ve decided to lighten up on that. We got tired of busting all those college students…”, so that statement is a no-brainer.
The cops can and will do drug tests. No kidding!
The cops don’t need a warrant if the person they ask cooperates and voluntarily provides a urine sample. Really!
That is all there is. No more, no less. Unless someone wants to come forward with documented cases of the Tokyo cops grabbing foreigners, forcing them into the back of a paddy wagon and making them pee into a cup against their will. Or screw the “foreigner” part, can anyone document it happening to anyone?
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Here’s a hint – if you don’t like how a country you chose to visit or live in treats you, get the hell out but don’t complain about your civil rights.
Japan is so great for this very reason – it doesn’t do everything the “western” (read: overly liberal) way.
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I DO like how a country I chose to visit or live in treats me. And one of those ways is to obey the law. Me and the police both.
Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
-Benjamin Franklin
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For crying out loud, ML, don’t you realise that many people here have Japanese FAMILIES? I have serious doubts about the intelligence of people who trot out the same “if you don’t like it, go home” bullsh1t. This IS home.
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I don’t see how that changes the situation – either take your family with you, leave them back, or stick to the rules and shut up. Japanese people surely haven’t aske for people coming in from failed societies and trying to force their failed concept of civil rights on them.
After all, those people who are always complaining about their “civil rights” being taken away are in 99.9% nutjobs or potheads who get angry when you take their toy away, or don’t let them drink in your bar, but are probably too egocentric to even notice when a real diminishing of civil rights happens somewhere.
I an only repeat – Japan is not the US or Europe. They still have some pride and morals left. So please nutjobs and other Otaku-types, please don’t try to make it more like your (failed) home country.
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Sorry, what about the concept of civil rights failed? I think most current internal and external criticism of America has to do with a *rollback* of civil rights over the last eight years, not having too many or protecting too many people.
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ML:
““western” (read: overly liberal) way.”
Ah, and there we have it folks. THAT’S why ML is a blithering idiot. ALL countries in the west are overly liberal, ML? Like Germany and Portugal, right?Also, last time I check the USA is still a very conservative country, only they’re currently run by Democrats (liberals and lefties).
ATTENTION!!
Everything ML says past “overly liberal” should be 100% disregarded. He gives conservatives a bad name. Thank you.
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Michael Linksooner: Excuse me but if I have criticisms on policies of the country where my family and I live, I will speak out. I believe in ideas and freedom and I’m not a coward. In fact, I will sometimes also speak out in support of others.
If you don’t like that, maybe you should get the hell out. I hear North Korea doesn’t tolerate dissent, and is even less “western” (read:overly liberal).
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I think all NJ residents are concerned about how they are perceived and whether their rights are being honoured and respected. One way to ensure this is by not coming off as blowhards crying wolf at windmills (don’t mix metaphors like that at home, kids).
Let’s look at what we have. Apparently, the cops staked out an area very near the most notorious nightspots in Roppongi, nightspots which are quite well-known as being, ummm shady. It also happens that most of the customers who visit the establishments in question are foreigners. Yes, there are places where Japanese do illegal drugs but, as Ken Y-N said, if these were also being targeted it would unlikely to be known to readers of websites and blogs such as this.
As far as I know, the presence was limited to a very particular time and a very particular place. So we are not seeing a willy-nilly targeting of NJs on Tokyo streets, as some responses seem to have assumed or be unwittingly propagating, but rather a very specific targeting. I would guess (and I admit that this is speculation) that maintaining a very heavy presence by these establishments is an attempt keep customers away from dubious areas to bleed them OR will serve as a basis for a fully-fledged raid if drugs are found. This is a pretty common police scenario.
There are also no reports yet of force or coercion. As far as I know, all urine submissions were cooperative (maybe involving an element of intimidation in such a situation or not being aware of the right to refuse). So the cops have not broken any laws. They are perfectly entitled to ASK you for a urine sample. Hell, I’M entitled to ask you for a urine sample. You are, however, free to refuse me just as you may refuse the cops (unless they have a warrant). So far, I have not heard of a refusal followed by force, threats, or an arrest. Speculation that refusal would be interpreted as obstruction of justice remains just that, speculation.
If I’m mistaken in the above please feel free to respond. But in the interest of maintaining our veracity among Japanese people, let’s not misrepresent things.
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Mike,
This argument does not reflect my own experiences with police checks. The usual technique for example for street bag checks without probable cause or warrants is that the cops “request” the person targeted allow them to search. If the person agrees, then the search proceeds and maybe no law has been broken. If they refuse however, the cops ask “why” over and over, and the target person’s repeated refusals is then deemed :suspicious,” which, the cops then say, gives them probable cause. It is a pseudo-logic, but it serves the cops well. Yes it’s speculation but I would not be surprised if this is how the cops are proceeding with their new urine tests.
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Probably in the equation “police targeting foreigners” should be added the “Yakuza” owns the drug market in Japan but it’s never cited by Japanese media that always refers to “gaijin” pushers…
Personally I’ve never been stopped in Japan, I got a very high pay job and love Japan, but many friends have been stopped in the last years. I think probably this depends on where you live and hang out in Tokyo but “stop and search” foreigners started 5-6 years ago in Shibuya and Harajuku and only recently it has been extended to Japanese young people…
Probably something that many “NJ right wingers” on Japan Probe (like Jimbo and LB) forget is that piss tests can be false-positive for many medications + passive smoked happenend weeks (sometimes months) before can be traced like positive.
If you wake up for few second from your “perfect Japan” dream could you try to imagine the consequences of a false positive to your life?!
PS I feel LB should work on his super ego since calling BOINGBOING an “idiot media outlet” is… okashii!!
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“NJ right wingers”
You say that like it is a bad thing…
“If you wake up for few second from your “perfect Japan” dream”
I have never had, nor will I ever have, such a dream.
“LB should work on his super ego”
I am trying to improve it – but sometimes I still think that other people are right, and so there is obviously work left to be done…
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Falso positives also possible if subject is on meds like Advil. And that false positive can ruin a life. Anyway isn’t this new, if “drug possession” charges can laid against someone who does not actually possess any drugs, but is merely suspected of having used them in the past?
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Rode through Roppongi at 5 AM today, on my way home from work.
Good news: no cops harassing anyone.
Does anyone know the time of day (hour and minute) that these drug tests occurred?
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I am pretty sure that the Japanese media will support such a thing. Hell, NHK might even to try to help the damn police!
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Ponta I notice a pattern in your comments, wherein (if) you admit something is wrong in Japan, you then find a reference to the same problem maybe existing in some other country, as if that should stop us from addressing the problem here. Do you honestly think Japan’s foreign community is unaware of the world outside?
I ask: Do you support people working to make their country of residence a better place? I ask because the above approach suggests you’ll defend the status quo in Japan, so long as it ranks at least second-to-last among the community of nations.
With regards to human rights, I think you set low standards for your country.
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I’ve already answered your questions in a comment to Kevin.
And I might add, I hate the double standard.
Some are, others are not.
I’ve suggested to organize a group working with native Japanese to provide correct and useful information and a lively forum to the newcomers rather than an organization which refuse to post retractions for statements that are clearly misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, factually incorrect.
Several times I’ve even offered to help.
I don’t understand this statement. Could you expand on that?
I don’t understand it either. Could you expand on that ?
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Ponta, you said: “I’ve suggested to organize a group working with native Japanese to provide correct and useful information…”
This strongly suggests you think Japanese residents who are members of ethnic minorities should find their voice through “racially pure” Japanese, so you answered my question thanks.
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Don’t put words in my mouth.
It seems you just don’t want any discussion.What’s your problem? I’ll listen.
And do you believe there are racially “pure” Japanese? —I think that makes no sense.
And if you want to discuss, click “Reply to this comment.
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No desire to discuss this further with you Ponta, we fundamentally disagree on the rights of Japanese ethnic minorities. I don’t abide the opinion that they should form a group with “native Japanese” (or you!) in order to “correctly” voice their opinions; I believe they have the right and duty to speak out for themselves. And I believe their voice should be heard.
I do want to discuss, but not with someone who dismisses the voice of Japanese ethnic minorities as “misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, or factually incorrect”.
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Are you talking about the Ainu? Because foreigners are not a “Japanese ethnic minority”.
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Again don’t put words in my mouth.
Do you prefer an exclusionary organization filled with misleading messages, lies, and hatred with no intention to retract to an a group working, discussing with the natives providing adequate information?
Don’t be Japanophobia. I’ll welcome you as long as you are open to discussions.
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I should have been more straight.
I don’t dismiss the voice of Japanese ethnic minorities as “misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, or factually incorrect” but I dismiss the debito’s blog as “misleading, exaggerated, disingenuous, or factually incorrect”.
If you want me to present evidences and arguments here on this forum, I’ll be more than happy to do it
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LB, you wrote: “Are you talking about the Ainu? Because foreigners are not a “Japanese ethnic minority”.
I am talking about ethnic minorities in Japan, so I was using the word “Japanese” to refer to the country. Like “Canadian ethnic minorities” would not only mean Inuit etc., but also for example Canadian residents of minority groups, such as those of Asian ethnicity etc. Sorry for the confusion, I realize there is a tendency to consider “Japanese” only as those from Joman or Yayoi backgrounds, but that is not accurate IMO.
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A better question is – do we have a bit of evidence that this is happening other than 2 or 3 forum posts?
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I am a foreigner living here for nearly twenty years and was recently stopped and searched in Roppongi in the middle of the afternoon. I asked the young cop if he has the right to search which he replied “yes” even though I was not behaving at all suspiciously, unless being non-Japanese is now suspicious. Also even though it was only two cops who stopped me another five or six came within minutes. This was very intimidating.
Also a few of my friends have recently been confronted by the police in different parts of Tokyo so it seems they are targeting foreigners.
For example, my friend was confronted by a cop at Tokyo station at 9am about a week ago, he was rushing to get on an express train so he refused and kept on walking, after the cop followed him for about 500m continually asking for ID he gave up and my friend got on his train. So it seems the law is still on our side, at least for now.
On the whole Japan is a great country to live in and I am glad to be here, but as my work often takes me into such areas of Tokyo I hope this racial profiling does not continue for long.
Thank-you for this forum.
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Outsider.
Do yourself a favor a Google “職務質問”and you’ll soon realize that it’s not a “foreinger” problem. Do yourself a favor and look up the National Police Agency stats on how many were arrested as a result of “職務質問” It’s over 150K in 2006. Are they mostly foreigners based on your logic?
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