Interview with Arudou Debito: Talking about the new gaijin cards

I know that in Sweden, Norway there is no such thing called gaijin card. They do not exist. I am sure it is like that in many European countries. So, from a Scandinavian perspective, I find this gaijin card to be outrageous, discriminatory, and Orwellian.

As aditional imformation

Foreigners to be issued Swedish ID – from 2009
http://www.hotfrogse.se/Companies/Expertadwords-Google-Sweden/Foreigners-to-be-issued-Swedish-ID-from-2009-43

Foreign identity documents in Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_Sweden#Foreign_identity_documents

hello ,

I am also very concerned about ID problem. I cannot carry my passport everywhere and I all the time need some sort of ID. I went to the bank Nordea and asked about ID but they denied and refused to issue any ID for international students in any case. I think it is a problem and it needs some solution.

Thank you,

Ana Kantaria
http://www.swedenintouch.se/Forum/Topics/Messages/?topicid=125

とほほの日記リターンズ
前の日記サイト閉鎖によりお引越し。スウェーデンでの怒涛の育児日記。
http://tohohonoshufu.blog18.fc2.com/

Should I leave Sweden, racism?

http://www.topix.net/forum/world/sweden/TTPIRAOGG1LM1GFM6

No gaijin cards in Scandinavia! Now, you can talk about Swedish porn if it makes you feel better or about the Al Qaida member currently living in Norway. All I am saying is that. There is no gaijin card in Scandinavia. From my opinion, things are much more leniant and much less of a right winged Orwellian police state than for instance Japan.

So Japan wants gaijins to carry around IC chipped gaijin cards at all time. Sounds something Hitler would think of with forcing Jews to wear their Start on their clothes.

A National ID card is a ID card for ALL its citizens. Gaijin cards is for gaijins ONLY. Do you see the difference? Demanding gaijins to always carry a card which states that they are Aliens is what is Hitlerish about the gaijin card. The point of a gaijin card is to remind people that they are gaijins. If government demands some National ID then it at least should be the same for all the people living in that country. Better yet, just scrap this thing called National ID as its too Orwellian to begin with.

I understand your views and think they are reasonable but I disagree with the fact that I don’t think gaijins should have to carry around a gaijin card at all times. A driver’s license or any kind of ID should do just like a Japanese person.

I agree with your views of national ID. We are entering a more surveillence Orwellian future all over the world.

Here is a link of world’s worse surveillence police states.

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2009/jun/electronic-police-state-2008.pdf

Here is a link of what is happening in Europe now with it’s surveillence.

http://www.ecln.org/ECLN-statement-on-Stockholm-Programme-April-2009-eng.pdf

Debitto comes with awareness about IC chipped gaijin cards which in my view is good. If gaijin cards are to be chipped then gaijins should not have to be forced to carry them at all times. Why not just micro chip every gaijin up their ass when they enter Narita?

No thank you.

I argue that you are getting hysterical when you make claims, as you did back in March of this year, that Debito is:

“planting the seed of fear among Japanese for the foreign-born in Japan and the seed of fear for Japan and Japanese among foreign kids”.

When I called you ridiculous for making a similar claim back in September last year, you replied to me as follows:

“You have just contributed to promoting a negative image of gaijin with your emotionalism against a native Japanese who protect evil tactics Debito org is employing”

I found that to be a hysterical reaction on your part. Several months on, it remains an indefensible thing to say. In that same thread, as you continued to misrepresent my position, another commenter felt obliged to tell you:

“Harry is certainly allowed to criticize you, Ponta, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s pro-Debito.”

It’s not only me, then, who has explained to you that you have misunderstood my position. I find it rich that, months later, you ask me to explain myself in Japanese for your benefit only. When I contribute to a discussion in Japanese and am told I’ve missed the point, it doesn’t occur to me to ask that everything be explained instead in English. It’s my responsibility to see where I’ve gone wrong just as its your responsibility now.

You have specifically quoted me and said they are the words of an “apologist” for Debito. What makes your claim even more absurd is that the words you have quoted are when I referred to “Debito’s penchant for exaggeration and error”. If you have sufficient English comprehension to understand what that phrase means then you really ought to be able to conclude that they are not written by an “apologist” for Debito.

In fact, everything I have written to you over several exchanges on this site could stand as evidence that what you have said above is a gross misrepresentation. If you have the same intellectual honesty that you demand of others then you will take back your claim and offer an apology. If you don’t, then I may have to conclude that “Ponta has a penchant for exaggeration and error”. In case you are in any doubt, that wouldn’t make me an apologist for you.

I’m in the habit of using word like “ridiculous” when I see claims like yours which fit the description. I use the word “hysterical” when you respond to my criticisms by arguing that I am “promoting a negative image of gaijin” with my “emotionalism against a native Japanese”. Those words are fit for purpose.

It seems you are unwilling to offer an apology. I’m not sure if I should believe one anyway since you may recall we’ve been down this road before already when you wrote:

“Harry’s post make it clear he is well-intentioned man who is willing to help communication between Japanese and non-Japanese, and he see some flaws in Debito’s activism quite accurately. I misunderstood. Harry, I am sorry.”

That Ponta seemed like a reasonable man who would come down off his high horse from time to time. I’m not keen on this dishonest Ponta who says that I am an apologist for Debito and won’t retract the claim even though the statement above shows that he knew it wasn’t the case then and knows it isn’t true now.

Weirdo,

I am happy to do so for you because you are not familiar with the exchanges we have had. Ponta doesn’t deserve a similar reply since he has already seen these statements cince most were made in direct reply to him. I’d also suggest that if Ponta wants to call me an apologist for Debito then the onus is on him to show how. However, here is what I have written about Debito for you to draw your own conclusions. All of the following can be found in exchanges on Japan Probe, Apologies to James for the repetition.

“Debito is a troubled man who claims to be an activist but has no activist agenda. He doesn’t act, he reacts. He wants an anti-discrimination law because he can then tell people what they are doing wrong instead of spending his time now telling people how to do things right. Do I hate Debito? Of course not. He’s an idiot because he doesn’t know what he is fighting for. He claims he doesn’t have time to reply to his critics but he’s the kind of small-minded guy who can’t resist wanting to respond to every last criticism. He has no sense of perspective which means he has loses all credibility.”

In reply to Ponta’s contention that I am promoting a negative image of gaijin by criticizing his claims:

“You seem determined to draw broad conclusions about groups based on one individual’s comments. That’s the kind of idiocy Debito deals in and by writing that comment you have made yourself look as ridiculous as him.”

On Debito’s “assistance”:

“I don’t think I overestimate Debito’s ‘helping hand’ because I’m very doubtful about the help he offers…One of my complaints about Debito is that he is almost completely unaware of the work done [by other foreign] communities unless the Japan Times happens to carry an article about it…When looking at the complaints people take to Debito, some of them seem like they can be solved by giving the complainer a hug while others look like they need serious legal firepower. One problem with Debito is that he isn’t really equipped properly to deal with either.”

On why Ponta is wrong to exaggerate Debito’s importance:

“I am quite confident that most Japanese people have never heard of Debito, let alone read his books and articles. Any Japanese who do bother are probably more internationalized than the average citizen because he writes almost exclusively in English. Consequently, they are unlikely to allow any distaste they might have for what he says to colour their views of foreigners in general…Can I recommend you simply ignore the man? If everyone who rushed to condemn him in the blogosphere would do so then fewer people would know he existed. All you are doing by attributing any significance to what he writes is helping to increasing his audience. Perhaps if Debito was starved of this attention and genuinely wanted to improve the position of foreigners in Japan then he would have to do something concrete which might be worth acknowledging. Or he might just carry on in his current vein in which case ignoring him would also make for a good long term plan.”

“I’m well aware of your efforts to counter Debito. Not least because you refer to them almost every time you mention the man which is an unhealthy amount and points towards a worrying obsession on your part. That is another reason why you should consider ignoring him. I know very well Debito’s penchant for exaggeration and error. I encountered him in usenet groups well before he appeared on your radar screen and, if I think it will affect his thinking or that of his audience, then I will take him to task. I’ve done so in the past and also quite recently. I don’t need any validation from you. What I won’t do is make outrageous claims about his influence on relations between Japanese and non-Japanese which you are prone to do. You insult the intelligent and reasonable members of both communities by doing so.”

“Why on earth would you imagine that I would be interested in setting up a separate website to correct Debito’s errors? That would be to confer on him an importance which he doesn’t have in my life and shouldn’t have in yours. The fact you suggest it indicates that you have missed my point. Don’t get bogged down in refuting such a minor figure. It’s your prerogative to work yourself up into a lather over Debito but I’m convinced that the relentless negativity it entails is causing you to lose all sense of proportion. Why let Debito set the agenda by constantly responding to him? Why not ignore him completely and set your own agenda? You’ll find ploughing your own furrow a much more rewarding enterprise. It should also help reaffirm your faith in others which appears to be wavering dangerously.”

Weirdo,

I hope that if you could be bothered to plough through that lot above then you will have a better idea of why I have taken offence. Ponta hasn’t been able to point directly to anything I have written which justifies his contention that I am an apologist for Debito. The reason for that is, simply, I have written nothing of the sort.

Ponta is unhappy that I’m unwilling to accept unreservedly all his criticisms of Debito. He appears to believe that the way to counter Debito’s exaggeration is through his own exaggeration. I think that is a grave error because the only lasting way to counter a dishonest argument is through the truth.

Ponta also is concerned that more people are not as upset as he is himself about the claims Debito makes. In order to generate more outrage, he would have people believe that Debito’s writings are “promoting a negative image of gaijin in Japan”. This brings us to your point and its one I’ve addressed several times in exchanges with Ponta. I’ll repeat only one example however. This is from last September:

“Debito is not a major national figure and remains largely unknown to the vast majority of Japanese citizens. He is also a white and white people make up a small minority of Japan’s foreign population. It is unlikely, for instance, that anything he says or does impacts particularly on people’s impressions of Koreans or Chinese in Japan. By making your statement, you are inflating Debito’s importance and influence to absurd levels…

…It is one thing to say that Debito stirs up hostility among Japanese people. It is another to say that this spreads to hostility towards foreigners in general and a separate claim again to say that the level of hostility is such that it affects how the whole Japanese population views foreigners. You appear to make all three claims without realizing the different levels of alarmism they imply.

Take the example of Governor Ishihara. Many foreigners, rightly or wrongly, believe him to be unsympathetic to their situation. When he coins a bon mot about foreigners which causes offence, it’s possible that someone might claim that he was turning foreign opinion against Japan. He’s a national figure after all. In truth, though, if it has any impact at all it is probably just to reduce people’s opinion of Ishihara himself or, at a pinch, to damage the international reputation of Japanese politicians. Ishihara is not an insignificant figure but the broader effect of his various gaffes is really not that profound. I think you underestimate the intelligence of Japanese people if you assume they will somehow be more affected by the far lower profile activities of Arudou Debito.

It’s almost as if you feel you have an internal ‘gaijin image seismometer’ such that when Debito does something you don’t like, you want to issue a tsunami warning. I think perhaps a recalibration is in order. Arguably, Debito has no more lasting impact on Japan’s emotional landscape than I have on it’s physical landscape when I trip over the kotatsu and land heavily on the floor.”

It has been pointed out to Ponta by others (which I quoted earlier) that when I write such criticisms, I’m certainly not defending Debito. He appeared to accept that point at the time and apologized (also posted earlier). However, when he continued to make his exaggerated claims and I once more pressed him not to do so, he reverted to his original position that I must be defending Debito.

I don’t even disagree with the general comment Ponta made to Roger in this thread. What I do object to is that he has went on to quote my words, which are actually critical of Debito, and then had the gall to label me an apologist for the man.

Ponta demands great accuracy from others so I think we are entitled to expect the same from him.

ハリーさん。
そういえば、以前にも議論に招待しましたね。
http://pontasmemorandum.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post.html
日本人女性の痴漢被害者が被害を受けたとの証言を疑ぐる趣旨のコメントに対して、日本人準強姦被害者を嘘つきと言わざる得ない、と、被告人に不利な事実を隠蔽し、未だ釈明もしていないグループについて言及し、それがときたま有道氏のグループだったのでーーー私は氏の名前を挙げませんでしたけどーーー血相を抱えて、私を抑制しにきたときですよ。
今回ののように彼にimportance を与えてしまうような、インタビューにも、同じようにクレームを出したのかしら？
好意的だから出さなかったのかしら？

いずれにせよ、ハリーさんは来なかった。残念でした。
有道氏のブログを批判するために親衛隊のような人達が実質的な議論をしないで、ぼくを罵倒しに来るーーーこうした嫌がらせは初めてではないですけどーーーし、どうも議論が些末なので、今回もぼくの方のブログへも招待しておきます。

議論したいんならちゃんとやりましょう。

If you intend to make amends then you also should do so on this site.

それは結構ですよ、他の方に迷惑がかからなければね。
あなたが有道氏のapologist だと暗示した理由はすでに書きました。Comment by ponta
2009-06-16 19:04:17
それに対して反論してください。
それと質問にも答えて下さいね。

ハリーさん、何度も蒸し返してもしょうがないので、論点を整理しておきましょう。

１）私は、例えば、外国人強姦犯人の裁判について、被告人に不利な事実を意図的に隠避し、また、日本人女性被害者の実名を公表し、さらに、日本人女性被害者がうそを言っている、とまでして、外国人の人権擁護の名目でキャンペーンをし、いまだ釈明もしていないような在日外人、及び、在日外国出身者の活動は日本人に在日外人に対して恐怖心を植え付ける、と考える。

ハリーさんはそんなことない、という。

２-a)石原都知事は法律知識が足りない、失策が多いなどと一般論をいいながら、石原氏の失言を明確に、あるいは暗に、あるいは、間接的に批判すると、そうして彼に注目を与えたり、批判したりすることは、彼の株を上げてしまうから、むしろ、無視しろ、というのは、そうした批判を抑制するのと等しく、また、そうした批判が出る度に必死に批判活動を抑制しようとする人物は彼のapologist（同然）だ、と、同じように、有道氏について、一般的な批判をしながらも、有道氏の手法を暗にあるいは、明確に批判する活動を抑制する論者は、彼のapologistと言わざる得ない、と私は考える。

ハリー氏は、無視せよ派であり、批判活動否定派、ないし、妨害派のように思える。

なお、ハリー氏は、有道氏を非難することなく取り上げた、Japan PodshowやJapanProbeには、無視しろ、とは抗議していない。

2-b)さらに、ハリー氏は、有道氏のブログなどを非難することは、彼の意義を高めてしまうと考える。

私は、彼に正当な批判を浴びせることは、彼にふさわしい評価を与えると考える。なお、不当な批判ならその不当な批判をしたひとの評価が下がるだけの話である。

3-a ）さらに、私が、ハリー氏の名前は出さないものの、暗に彼を有道氏のapogisitである、と形容したことに関して、ハリー氏は数度にわたって、私に謝罪を求めている。

私は、2-a)などで記した理由により、記述は正当なものである、と考えている。

3-b)なお、例えば、ハリー氏は「you are busy stocking up on Nissin cup noodles and House Food curry in preparation for the coming clash of civilizations unleashed by a bumbler from Hokkaido」などと私に関して全く根拠のない間違った記述をしているものの謝罪をしていない。

私は（３）のような応酬は非生産的であり、ハリー氏がこうした些末なことにこだわることで、再び私の有道氏に関する批判を抑制しようとしているのではないか、と正直なところ、疑っている。

ーーーーこんな感じでしょうか？私に誤解があれば指摘してください。
また、でていない論点があれば、申し述べて下さい。相違点を明らかにしましょう・・・・私が有道氏に言及する度に、同じ事を繰り返してもしょうがないですから。

You have a problem with my tone. I have a problem with yours and we’ve both written about this before. Perhaps it’s worth going into this in a little more detail.

The use of the word “ridiculous” in English in no way compares with the use of the word 馬鹿 in Japanese. In that, you are simply mistaken. The word “idiot” could be said to be pejorative to the same degree as 馬鹿 and I did indeed use the word “idiot”. However, I didn’t use it to refer to you, I used it to refer to Debito. Do you think calling someone 馬鹿 makes you their apologist?

I can understand how that mistake might be an easy one to make but I don’t think even you seriously entertain the idea that the use of the word “ridiculous” implies “お前”.

I called your claims “hysterical”, however, I notice that you sometimes render the word as ヒステリカル which you link to ヒステリー and that leads me to believe that you have in mind the primary uses of those words in Japanese rather than the way I have used the word. My use, a common one in English, is similar to the way you use “emotionalism” as an accusation against me. We are doing nothing different here. There is no claim you can safely make against my use of the word that you wouldn’t be obliged to concede over your use of “emotionalism”.

My tone is certainly critical of some of your positions but if you think all I have done is claim you run around screaming then you have entirely misunderstood my tone as well as my points.

Yes, we do disagree about the impact of Debito’s ramblings. I first took you to task over the effect you claimed he was having on the way Japanese think of foreigners and I’ll repeat for the second time in this thread why I think you are wrong:

“Debito is not a major national figure and remains largely unknown to the vast majority of Japanese citizens. He is also a white and white people make up a small minority of Japan’s foreign population. It is unlikely, for instance, that anything he says or does impacts particularly on people’s impressions of Koreans or Chinese in Japan. By making your statement, you are inflating Debito’s importance and influence to absurd levels…

“…It is one thing to say that Debito stirs up hostility among Japanese people. It is another to say that this spreads to hostility towards foreigners in general and a separate claim again to say that the level of hostility is such that it affects how the whole Japanese population views foreigners. You appear to make all three claims without realizing the different levels of alarmism they imply.

“Take the example of Governor Ishihara. Many foreigners, rightly or wrongly, believe him to be unsympathetic to their situation. When he coins a bon mot about foreigners which causes offence, it’s possible that someone might claim that he was turning foreign opinion against Japan. He’s a national figure after all. In truth, though, if it has any impact at all it is probably just to reduce people’s opinion of Ishihara himself or, at a pinch, to damage the international reputation of Japanese politicians. Ishihara is not an insignificant figure but the broader effect of his various gaffes is really not that profound. I think you underestimate the intelligence of Japanese people if you assume they will somehow be more affected by the far lower profile activities of Arudou Debito.”

You are free to be outraged by Debito and what he writes but when you try to create the impression that he is a significant influence on how Japanese nationals view foreigners then I will beg to differ. I know you feel strongly but I don’t believe you are right. I think your approach does nothing to undermine Debito but instead lends him credibility which he doesn’t deserve. I have made this point before and, if you look back, you’ll see that others have made it to you also. Especially when you dragged his name unnecessarily into arguments in other threads. Is everyone who tells you that an apologist for Debito?

You asked for a URL pointing to debates I’ve had in Japanese. Goodness, that made me smile. Does everyone really live their lives these days entirely in public on the internet that you automatically ask for a URL? A large part of my life in Japan was lived before there was an affordable word processor let alone the PC and the internet. Have you ever used a Japanese typewriter? I couldn’t master it so much of my correspondence is handwritten. Even if you could handle a typewriter, it probably slowed you down but I was lucky to have some friends who were prepared to use them so I wouldn’t have to decipher their handwriting. However that put the onus on me to understand what they wrote. In the same way, you are participating in a an English language forum and the onus is on you to stand your ground and understand what you are being told. But when your English skills are tested or called into question, you ask for a Japanese translation and revert to writing in Japanese. I have no respect for your decision to do that.

Likewise, it is an utter disgrace that instead of unreservedly apologizing for your misrepresentation of my position you demand I help you as “proof” that I am not an apologist for Debito. I was prepared to believe other commenters when they said you were well-meaning but I’m afraid your continual unsubstantiated accusations argue otherwise. Are you still looking through everything I have written hoping to find something to prove your case? You won’t find it and I think you know that very well.

He has a Japanese passport, he’s not Japanese

Do you have trouble with basic logic?

Debito has no interest or understanding of Japanese culture and society? Ohh really? And how do you know this?

For some reason Debito rubs you the wrong way. Fine. But your idea of what it means to be Japanese are myopic.

His own viewpoint is unmistakably far-left-wing American.

Oh please…..what does that Fox News term even mean? Ask 100 americans what it means and you will get 150 different answers. In your above screed it means precisely “sees things differently than you personally” – and not more.

And his knowledge of specific eras of racist american law is allegedly not up to your personal standards (along with that of huge swathes of US population). Yes….this is excellent demonstration that everything debito says or does has zero legitimacy.

Or for a more nuts-and-bolts issue, listen to his Japanese

…..that comment is right on time, isnt it?. Never over-looked. Nothing to do with above video of course, but right on time and always relevant. But I note you neglected to add the standard disparaging comments of his martial history as further proof that everything he says or does is wrong, 100% dismissable, and possibly evil. Limited time?

Above screed about inherently evil debito can be safely filed along with with similar ponta comments – under “irrational vendetta” by self-appointed Japan culture vulture.

“His own viewpoint is unmistakably far-left-wing American. ”
I find this comment insulting as a left wing American.

‘your idea of what it means to be Japanese are myopic.’

This infact has nothing to with being myopic or not. Yes, u can have your own lifestyle no matter where u are but forcing others to change their culture and lifestyle just for u is indeed unacceptable for me. Plus, my point is not about how japanese Debito is but it’s about adaptation and understanding such as the short clip of Mr. Mansour.

Debito just wants a piece of the racism pie I’m afraid. I’m not entirely sure why though, maybe it makes him feel important.

He wouldn’t survive a day as a black / brown man in England or America. He’d be complaining so much that he’d go crazy.