Of course! Yet more proof that JAPAN does not work and that some participants are worthless losers who should be deported.

At any rate, if its abandoned, as long as you dont trash the damn place I dont think anyone is doing any harm. Let’s just hope the lame ass Japanese police feel the same way.

By the way, if anyone is in the Gunma or Tochigi or Saitama prefecture and wants to play with us, reply and ill get back to ya!

it may be impossible for a good citizen in Japan to get a gun.

Just how many other gestures similar to this is an American ALT likely to teach his class to do? So the two fingers aren’t lined up perfectly, so is not a perfect “shocker,” is this really relevant? First of all, the photo is out there labelled “shocker,” so the damage is done: I doubt most people will be picky enough to measure the gap between fingers. When someone or some group is labelled, it is very hard to shake that label (flip-flopper…).

Which is more likely – that some jackass taught his class a rude sign, they took a pic of them doing it imperfectly, or some weird guy taught his class a bizarre sign that coincidentally happens to really resemble a rude sign? Motives, motives….

[Just went through the spam filter and found this in a couple hours back - sorry for not noticing it earlier!]

http://www.shockerpics.com/blog/nancy-pelosi-throws-the-shocker/

http://www.shockerpics.com/blog/santas-little-helpers/

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g317/venaker/snoop_shocker.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bill_roehl/2170437772/in/pool-theshocker

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/ritters/theShocker.png

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bill_roehl/2034817223/in/pool-theshocker

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree one what constitutes a shocker.

Let’s agree to disagree – I think you put forward well reasoned arguments but we obviously view this differently. I appreciate the civil discussion and applaud you for being such a good host. Next time you visit Tokyo (or are you already here?) let me know and if you want we can continue the argument over a beer.

regards

Will

1. It’s hard to position one’s fingers in such a way if you’re not used to it. I had trouble getting my middle and index fingers to stay tightly together when I attempted such a gesture right now.

2. Whether or not the shocker is a practical means of doing the claimed action really doesn’t matter. I think it’s mainly used as a crude joke by teenagers, few of whom have actually had a chance to use it.

3. The photo was uploaded by the guy’s friend and identified as a shocker pic.

Number 3 combines with the appearance of hands attempting the shocker pose to convince me that it’s a shocker photo.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You’ve set out your reasons clearly and whilst I don’t agree with you I appreciate you taking the time (as I appreciate your work in providing JapanProbe).

You wrote that you had yet to see a convincing argument that the gesture wasn’t “the shocker” – heres goes:

1. Definitional
From Wikipedia
The shocker is a hand gesture with a sexual connotation. The ring finger and thumb are curled or bent down while the other fingers are extended. The index and middle fingers are kept together (touching) and the back of the hand faces outwards (away from the gesturer).

The important words are these: “The index and middle fingers are kept together (touching)”

Now go and look at the ALT and student photo again.
The index and middle fingers are NOT touching.
QED the photo does not demonstrate “the shocker”

2. Practical
The real “shocker” has the index and middle fingers together because they are representative of double digital vaginal penetration. The index and middle fingers of the ALT and students are clearly separated and could not easily be inserted into a vagina – it doesn’t even make logical sense to claim that the photo depicts “the shocker”.

regards

The shocker photo was described as a shocker photo by the friend of the teacher who uploaded it, and the four people I consulted before posting it agreed that it was the shocker. I have yet to see a convincing argument about the hand gesture not being the shocker.

You say that nobody is being hurt by the shocker photo, but I must disagree. The students that ALT taught were clearly being used to make a dirty joke picture without their knowledge. His action violated the trust the parents, children, and school board had placed in him. Even if the children in the photo are not aware of what happened, the act of that teacher taking that joke photograph and sending it around to his friends was harmful to those students, in my opinion. Some might even argue that he violated their rights, but I won’t go that far. I don’t think his action was illegal, but it was an immature, idiotic, and irresponsible.

The ALT’s in these videos may have been illegally trespassing, but even if they were, I don’t really see it something as bad as the shocker photo. This is because:
-The hotel looks to have been abandoned for years, and it’s falling apart. Their airsoft shootouts aren’t causing noteworthy damage or causing injury to a third party.
-This has been done on their own private time. They aren’t doing this at school, and they aren’t doing it to their students.

It’s possible that someone could get angry or offended by their behavior, but I won’t. Whether legal act or petty violation of the law, I don’t see any harm in what they did. If their employers found out about the videos, I’d expect they might be scolded, but I doubt that they’d get arrested and fired, and I would consider it an outrageous overreaction if that did happen.

You on the other hand tried to introduce two hypothetical examples as part of a straw man argument.

And I profferred the tyre incident merely to demonstrate the potential consequences of certain actions.

If you have any substantive points to make on the central point of this discussion, ie “why is non-illegal, allegedly offensive behaviour worthy of criticism where illegal behaviour is not?”, I look forward to seeing it.

Hey, you introduced “the shocker” and the tire incident as examples. Double standards are us?

If you want to advance a cogent argument please deal with the subject matter at hand and don’t introduce extraneous examples.

Teachers need to be held to a higher standard. The line is not set at “is it harmful”, it is set at “is it appropriate”. There’s a reason for the lower tolerance limit, and I sincerely hope you can see that.

I understand your point about harming others and as a principle I laud it – but making hand gestures, sexual or otherwise, harms no one, whereas ALTs (who are role models whether they think so or not) illegally trespassing on private property and playing shooting games could influence their students to do similar things. Even if their students are not so influenced, if these chaps get busted and sent home then they will have brought their positions into disrepute and this will impact their students. I guess I was looking for a little more consistency in the editorial comment department.

Could they have asked permission before using the building? I don’t know, and I’m not prepared to absolutely declare that they are breaking the law. I’m also not going to assume that they’re using illegal BB’s – a ridiculous idea given the abundance of legal airsoft guns & ammo in this country.

I doubt that anyone will get angry over their alleged trespassing in an abandoned building. What they are doing harms nobody. They aren’t taking advantage of their position as trusted English teachers to trick Japanese students into making lewd gestures, nor are they stealing someone’s tire.

ALTs in Kochi sacked for uploading video of themselves trespassing to YouTube

It only takes one person with no sense of humour and they’re on the next plane home, I fear.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7577326.stm

If a passer-by saw those guys from a window, I’m sure it would result in quite a few disgruntled policemen, a report on the evening news and a -1 on the Gaijin reputation tab.