Hi, LB:

1. There r thousands of Nazis running on the street in Germany at some very special days. I made the mistake not to mention I was actually saying Germany as a whole. Ops. Its not about the figures anyway.

By the way, the third largest jpanese expat community is in Shanghai.

There was one outburst of anti-JP demonstrations
in 50 years, of course totally unprovoked by anybody.

-The Chinese have the right to express their anger.
-They shouldnt act violently.
(Although egg-throwing isnt exactly violent. Next time, i suggest rotten tomatos instead of stones.)

Did any Japanese ever encounter racist attacts like being chased & being beaten up to death in China before & after the heat got cold? Things like this happens in the west.

But hey, if u think a minority represents a majority,therefore China is racist or antiJP, u r free to do so.

-Well, the beloved JP TV media. They show sufferings, i know. But practically 90% of it r japanese sufferings in WW2, isnt it?

I know i exaggerated too much.
But, isnt the reduction of the death toll of nanking an act of whitewashing history? (Like we were bad, but not that bad.)
If not, what is it than? I think its scandalous that its being used in any school.

So, its acceptable when just 2 schools use it? How about 3 or 4 or 5? Where is the limit?
Isnt this a subtile manipulation when u offer ppl choices to believe in?
Nanking is being regarded as the biggest blot in JPs recent history. I totally understand if a Japanese choose their 20.000 dead version over the 300.000 dead version. Human nature.

________________________________

hi, stereo

I dun know how anyone can come up with the idea that I was referring to anything else than history lesson.

I know exactly how the german education system works cos I had german school education myself. I spent a whole school year to learn everything about WW2 BESIDE other lessons like math & physics etc. Thats why we needed a whole school year instead of 1 month!
We met survivors of KZs, we visited KZ etc.

Did any of the jpanese classes ever get a visit from its former victims? Is there any museum giving a sincere & full coverage of JPs war crimes at all? Not just showing some old airplanes. Did u ever saw pics of jpanese soldier killing civilians in China or elsewhere / mass graves / beheadings / rape victims in schoolbooks? Or in any history museum in JP? (I saw stuff like that in german schoolbooks & museums. Nasty).

Ok. the 1000 was a bit exaggerated. Well, according to Wiki, some 300.000 ppl died in Nanking. The textbook says some 20.000 died. Makes me feel lots better now.

How would u feel if the US government gives its O.K. for a school book saying just some 20.000 ppl died in Hiroshima?

Dont tell me I dont undertand JP. I experienced how a nation(Germany)can face its history in a sincere & dignified way. And JP seems to be far away from it. Admitted, CN/SK r worst.

“Do u know that german pupil spend 1 school year to learn the history of WW2″
I do not know, and anyone with minimal common sense would doubt your assertion.
Do you believe German pupils spend a whole school year without learning anything about math, science, language, arts, geography, or physical education, but WW2?
It seems you have developed a habit of believing in whatever makes you feel good.

“Than he learned from another book brought by the teacher that Japan only did good things in China and actually only 100 ppl died in Nanking.”
Which Japanese textbook says “only 100 ppl died in Nanking”? Just show me. You are criticizing Japan for something that does not even exist.

Some examples:

I used to work in Yaesu in Tokyo and they would frequently hold truck parades in front of Tokyo Station. When they drove by, despite being in my office, I couldn’t hear anything but the blaring enka music.

Frequently when walking with my wife in Chiba, on national holidays, a truck will drive by playing music and it’s nearly impossible to hear what my wife is saying right next to me.

Last example, and the worst one, I was in my living room – in a house 3 blocks from the nearest road, and a truck drove by playing enka music and I couldn’t hear my TV sound system in an action movie. That was crazy, and definitely above 85db.

1000 potheads? There were many more than that in one demo in one city, and there were demos in many cities in China. Recently. Hardly “years ago”.

Thousands of neo-Nazis marching in Germany every year? Try a few hundred – with many times more than that marching in counter-protest. THAT is why no-one says “all Germans are Nazis” – the Germans show through their actions that they disapprove, as a society, of the actions of those few. Where were the Chinese who disapproved of the mobs throwing rocks and eggs at the Japanese embassy and consulates?

“The Japanese avoid facing their history”. Obviously you know nothing of the Japanese educational system or the types of programs that are regularly broadcast on Japanese TV by both the private and state-run networks. If you had any clue as to the amount of information readily and freely available to Japanese, you would never say “the Japanese avoid facing their history”. You were right when you said this: “Also, the textbooks. I dont know.” You’re right. You don’t know.

If you read the bottom, there were cases of arrests for those who violated the sound ordinance.

If you really think the sound is more than 85dB at 10-meter distance, you can call the police. They will send you a police team with a sound-measuring machine, and if they find the noise is indeed louder than 85dB, they will arrest the rightists. Well, I bet the sound is less than 85 dB.

1. STOP EQUALING the 1.3 BILLION PPL OF CHINA WITH THOSE 1000 POTHEADS WHO DEMONSTRATED AGAINST JAPAN YEARS YEARS AGO.

EVERY year in Germany, thousands of Nazis walk along the street in major cities to celebrate facism. The west still dont say the germans r all Nazis.
But when in China, some 0,00000000000001% of the population did something stupid, suddenly ALL CHINESE r racist & nationalistic etc.

No generalisation plz.

2.

TO LB:

Do u know that german pupil spend 1 school year to learn the history of WW2 with specific emphasis on concentration camps and the horros commited by Germans?

And u think its Ok when the Japanese (like the Germans being accused of some of the worst crimes of human history)
just avoid facing this page of their history with the excuse of not having enough time? WOW. Thats good.

Also, the textbooks. I dont know.

I just imagine what will happen in the US if the german government approves a school textbook saying just 3 million jews died & the KZs were not that bad after all.
I mean, its not a book published by independent publisher, its a whitewashing document published with approval at governmental level.
Who guarantees that not more&more schools in the future start choosing this books for teaching?

e.g.: a 16 year old learned from one book that Japan did bad things in China, and Nanking massacre cause the death of hundreds of thousands.
Than he learned from another book brought by the teacher that Japan only did good things in China and actually only 100 ppl died in Nanking.
The Japanese r actually offering their youngster alternatives to believe in, no matter true or not. This guy now has the choice, he can choose to believe Japan was bad OR good in WW2.
Now tell me, its this subtle manipulation at its best or not?
Give this 16 years old a reason not to choose the better sounding one.

Dont mention China for justification plz. 2 wrongs dont make blablabla…

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm

This is a hearing loss web site that states that 85db is the volume level of busy city traffic or a bulldozer *idling*. 95db is the volume level of a hair dryer or gas mower. 105db is the volume level of a personal walkman or a tractor.

When those trucks pass by I can’t hear anything else – not cars, not the person talking next to me, nothing. And I can usually hear them quite a distance away. I would be very surprised if that was below the 85db that you stated.

Actually, we already have such laws. For example, Tokyo has 拡声機による暴騒音の規制に関する条例 “Ordinance to regulate extreme sound from loudspeakers”, which says no one can use a loudspeaker to make louder noise than 85 dB at 10 meter distance. The right wing activists keep the volume-level just below 85 dB.

Still, the sound is quite big, isn’t it? If we change the law to lower than 85dB, the law itself can be deemed unconstitutional.

Why? It’s the national flag, and has been the symbol of Japan for centuries. I don’t agree with those who say it is a symbol of Japan’s militarist past. It goes back much, much farther than that. Every nation has dark blots on its history. You don’t see the British hiding the Union Jack just because it was flown by ships who bombarded Chinese villages in a war fought to protect British drug traders, now do you (for example, not meaning to single out the British)?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/japans-about-face/video-full-episode/1641/

As much as I can understand your position that you’d like to see the status quo stay so for the coming years (only because I’m used to it too and I’m already well off in it), unfortunately that doesn’t seem like that’s the wisest option or attitude to cling to in the face of the inevitable. The inevitable being a likely shift in values and culture over the years amidst influx of foreign workers and cultures along with them with the current economy and birth rate in stagnation.

Also, I’m not quite sure what you mean in the above post, but are you saying you miss the old days when only might made right?

Please try the link below,
http://web.archive.org/web/20011217234057/http://www.asahi.com/english/weekend/K2001120900069.html

or, in case it doesn’t work, try wayback machine, to find the article:
http://www.asahi.com/english/weekend/K2001120900069.html

Why, exactly? You state this very firmly, but I can’t think of any legitimate backup this thesis except for rather abundant kitchen sink philosophy. Japan and Germany both adopted rather modest, self-critical and self-restricted stances in terms of politics. Both are among the best places to live in the world. Care to tell how this could have happened?

Although most Japanese are clueless about who those uyoku on black vans are, some zainichi Koreans seem to know it. In an interview with Asahi Shimbun, a zainichi Korean activist Shin Sugok once told that many of the uyoku on the black vans are Koreans.

Asked whether she is concerned that her outspokenness will draw the ire of right-wing forces, she is defiant.

“I hope they send the sound trucks over and park them outside my window. I will set up my own loudspeakers and blast them right back!”

Most of those who appear to be right-wingers, she says, are just frustrated people feeling the same sense of isolation that minorities such as herself feel. Many, in fact, are Koreans, she said.

In this regard, I have never seen uyoku on black van making a speech on the Takeshima issue. I often see them making speeches on the northern territories that are disputed with Russia, but they rarely mention disputes with Korea.

Also, I sometimes see them paintinting the crest of chrysanthemum on their black vans. I have heard that Japanese serious right-wingers don’t use that crest, since they consider it irreverence to use the imperial crest.

As far as I know, policy is different from public opinion, but it seems that you’re arguing about nationalistic people and I’m arguing about nationalists with power. So I think we’re both right.

Beyond that, I certainly don’t want to seem like I’m part of a Western media conspiracy, so I think it’s time for me to duck out of this “conversation” and see if anyone else wants to pick up the thread. For the record, Ponta, I thought that those links you sent were pretty interesting. I hope you’ll take a look at the books I mentioned.

“…the Japanese do not manifest nationalism with individual statements, but rather through a collective tacit approval of right wing groups and politicians.”

– We have a lot of extreme-left wingers in our third world country (complete with armed “revolutionaries”!! and representatives in governemnt!). But just because they take to the streets all the time and we let them exercise their freedom of speech doesn’t mean we’re tacitly agreeing with their ideals, much less automatically be leftists ourselves. I mean, come on, the reasoning you presented just doesn’t hold water (well, at least in countries with free speech that also have a tolerant populace).

- Say for example: just because KKK members and Neo Nazis can hold public rallies, parades, and marches doesn’t mean every American tacitly approve of Neo nazism. And Americans don’t have to wave their little Neo nazi flags anymore because they have these very eyecatching skinheads doing it for ‘em anyway. Just because your neighbor goes around the neighborhood shouting inanities, and no one does anything about it, doesn’t mean that everyone agrees with what the shouting neighbor is doing. Odds are, maybe the populace just doesn’t care, or they think that it’ll be too stupid and unproductive if they got involved. Or they know the neighbor will tire of it long enough.

“the Japanese do not manifest nationalism with individual statements, but rather through a collective tacit approval of right wing groups and politicians.”

-Yeah, and every Filipino is a tacit leftist because the leftists here have these periodic rallies organized by communists. The fact we don’t stop these rallies is proof that leftism has our tacit approval. Aw, come on.

-But anyway, in my opinion, the existence of the “black vans” and other ultranationalist groups is beside the point. I think most will agree with me if I say that what’s most material are the sentiments of your typical citizen. Well, that, plus how this typical citizen acts based on these sentiments. Regarding Japan, the fact that only these rightist groups go around being nationalistic is indicative that nationalism is more or less limited to an extremely small portion of society. Compare this with China (whos’ global Olympic torch relay was accompanied with violence meted out by “Neighborly Mr. Wang from across the street”, add to that the anti Japan riots of several years ago where Japanese businesses were attacked), and Korea (just mention Dokdo), Japan is fairly not nationalistic.

-Anyway, until the time that Japanese start emulating the aforementioned Chinese and Korean examples, odds are most people (well, at least me, hehe) have no reason to change their opinion that Japanese are generally peaceable non-nationalistic people. Every country has the equivalent of these “black van” groups. What’s important is that most citizens don’t not think like these “black van-ers”.

the black vans, which are allowed unfettered access to Japanese streets? Dont those reflect a strong nationalist power in Japan?

English media talks that way as if the black van symbolized the resurgence of Japanese militarism.
I think people need to do reality check-ups.
As for the relation with black vans and the Japanese public, did the journalists interview how the Japanese people think of them?
I restate my opinion; most Japanese just ignore black van rightists, or hate them, or just don’t want to be involved with them in anyway to “hurt their feelings” because they don’t like to be hear the speech in a super big voice in front of their house.
(Note I am not saying there is none. okay I concede, you might “sometimes” see them on a specific place. For foreigners, they might stand out, for Japanese they are the objects to be ignored.) They have few support from the people in general. I need some evidences to believe otherwise.

As for the power of black van rightists in Japanese society, do they have such power? I know the former pm takeshita was threaten by a black van rightist, by so called home -goroshi, killing by praising. But other than that, I am not so familiar. Enlighten me.
They speak loud like a crazy man on the street because they have little influence, and if they had strong influence on politics, Japanese politics would come on stronger over , say, takeshima-issue.
I know a conspiracy theory that behind the Japanese society, yakuza and uyoku control almost everything. It
may be true that some companies are still threatened by yakuza, uyoku,soukaiya. But that is all about it. It is far from controlling J society. Yakuza dominate the underground like brothels and gambles, but does that related to nationalism?

Do they have such power to stir up nationalism among Japanese people so that Japanese people may demonstrate and cry out for the nation like Korean and Chinese people?
Do they have such power to affect Japan’s policy?
Enlighten me.

As for your points, I think its very interesting that many of the black van people are Zainichi, but surely if thats a fact you can back it up.

I provided the links at 2008-07-31 15:26:37
Here is another link.I talked about a Korean woman who tells her theory why some Koreans participate in right wingers.

Most of those who appear to be right-wingers,　she says, are just frustrated people
feeling the same sense of isolation that minorities such as herself feel. Many, in fact, are Koreans, she said.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040213232014/http://www.asahi.com/english/weekend/K2001120900069.html

Benjamin says

They don`t mention anything about Zainichi (although this doesnt prove you wrong) but they do mention the use of black vans to intimidate,…..

one of Japan’s open secrets: burakumin and ethnic Koreans dominate the organized crime gangs known as the yakuza.
More than three-quarters of the members of the Yamaguchi Gumi,
Japan’s biggest underworld organization, are said to be burakumin or ethnic Koreans

http://www.pqarchiver.com/home.html?type=newspaper
and
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=ARl_TEb-zqE
I hope they’ll help.

they mention that they are overlooked by the police for the exact reason that you state: that the police find them useful in controlling “anti-state” organizations such as the communists.

The point is how the authors of the books backed up this thesis.

I`d like to state again that this article confuses me. What of the perennial Yasukuni conflict and the black vans, which are allowed unfettered access to Japanese streets? Dont those reflect a strong nationalist power in Japan? Maybe yasukini is overblown by Korea`s perennial *reaction* to it, but I have never met a single resident of Japan who denied that the black vans are still out there.

Ponta, You asked me to back up my theory but I gave you my sources, two books on the Yakuza. One is written by an academic, the other is written by two journalists. They are the major English-language works on organized crime in Japan and I recommend you check them out.

They don`t mention anything about Zainichi (although this doesnt prove you wrong) but they do mention the use of black vans to intimidate, particularly by yakuza either hired by or pretending to be extremists, and they mention that they are overlooked by the police for the exact reason that you state: that the police find them useful in controlling “anti-state” organizations such as the communists. Why this has to do with being Zainichi, I dont understand.

As for your points, I think its very interesting that many of the black van people are Zainichi, but surely if thats a fact you can back it up. The link that you last provided is a link to wikipedia`s biography of a Japanese comedian.

/sarcasm

I agree that this guy makes Temple University look like a joke. Or was it a joke to begin with? I’m not sure either way.

Ponta – neither Shibuya, nor Yasukuni (haven’t been yet, but really want to see the museum sometime). Try Ueno Park on a Sunday

I sometimes visit the park for pleasure, but not on Sundays. I’ve never noticed them. Benjamin says they are actives on Sundays at Shibuya, Maybe Sundays are the days for practice to right-wingers?;-)

“Cluelessness really isn’t an excuse. Really Japan has to understand that public discourse here is not just a domestic discourse, it’s an international discourse.” (Text in bold is mine)

How did the E-Mobile commercial suddenly come to represent the entire nation of Japan? And what’s up with his fixation with the word ‘discourse’? Does a commercial qualify as ‘discourse’?

What Mr. Kingston is arguing is that Japanese people as a whole are somehow obligated to perceive racism in the exact same way that racism is perceived in the West, and if they don’t then they are naive. He insinuates that not associating the E-Mobile commercial with racism is a flaw of their characters (as an entire race, mind you), therefore the commercial is a reflection of the prejudice of the entire nation.

Wow! Temple University is overflowing with irony!

As for winged politicians specifically, well, isn’t it obvious that you’d expect nationalism to come in the form of something like voting for your the politician you happen to agree with?

Do you think those sound truck activities are crime in Japan or in any nation where freedom of speech is guaranteed by the bill of rights?

Let’s suppose you are the Prime Minister of Japan, or the chief of police department, or anyone with power, what can you do to stop that sound which is well protected by the constitution? Nothing. You just have to endure the loud sound till they go. And now you understand that you are not tacitly approving the right wings.

If you have any bright idea to stop the sound truck activities without violating freedom of speech, please let me know.

why wave a little flag when there are gigantic buses emblazoned with nationalist icons and slogans

The Japanese used to raise a national flag on national holidays in front of the house.’(You can see it in the old movies and old news) Nowadays you rarely see them.
I am not sure how many Japanese you actually talked with on this topic, but most Japanese just ignore black van rightists, or hate them, and don’t want to be involved with them in anyway to “hurt their feelings” because they don’t like to be hear the speech in a super big voice in front of their house.

This is an interesting topic, let’s not build a theory on a theory but talk based on observations and the fact.

There were a lot of incidents that involved Koreans in the 1920s. Would you tell me how you concluded menrui was talking about no other incident but the killing after the earthquake in 1923?

As for the zainichi Korean rightists, I am not talking about the conspiracy theory, I am talking about the fact .

It is a fact that many of the representatives are Koreans and
it is a fact that many of right Japanese right-wingers hate them.

As for why the Japanese police don’t stop them, I’ve also heard another conspiracy theory. The police let them go because they are sometimes useful to threat the radical leftists and other organizations the police deem anti-state. But that is just an conspiracy theory with no further back up. Do you have back-ups to your theory?

Japan is unique for its lack of nationalism.

The fact that you say your feelings about the past represent most Japanese people does not bode well for Japan.

A nation that is afflicted with a self-loathing and low self-esteem is not a good recipe for future success.

I find it much easier to believe that the reason that I see those black vans out and about, bothering the heck out of Japanese people, is because they’re attached to powerful nationalist groups who the police fear.