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Japanese Video Charges Australia with Racism, Animal Extinction

In a bid to point out the hypocrisy of Australians, someone made this video, with pretty good English (still obviously non-native) and Japanese text. I’m busy packing, so I am gonna pull a bit of a coffee lady and let you discuss among yourselves, but I kinda felt this needed to be looked at. They make some points I agree with, however I feel it is a bit of a distraction from their own issues (perhaps the reverse is true for Australians). “Well, you guys are worse, so what we do isn’t that bad!” type of feeling with this one, but well done.

67 Comments [Comments are now closed for this post] Posted by Claytonian - December 24, 2007 at 11:45 pm

Categories: General Japan, Technology Tags: whaling

Unstable_Isotope

Hmm, I basically stopped watching this video after the first 10 seconds where it points out that it is impossible to be vegetarian, because of man’s natural cruelty. Speak for yourself but I have managed to be vegetarian for the last 18 years or so.

Australians may well be hypocritical but that has no bearing on anti-whaling arguments.

The author may know a little English, I suggest they learn a little logic next time so they don’t make any more Ad Hominen fallacies.

I have heard some anecdotal evidence that the Japanese aren’t very logical. Anyone care to back this up?

ponta

“Australians may well be hypocritical but that has no bearing on anti-whaling arguments.”
It has bearing on non-vegetarian’s anti-whaling argument.

“I have heard some anecdotal evidence that the Japanese aren’t very logical. Anyone care to back this up?”

Do you think Japanese high technology works on the illogical ground?

I have heard some antenatal evidence that some people of every nation are sometimes very illogical. What is your logical ground to pick up an anecdote of especially the Japanese and what backing-up do you expect to be like? Do you want people to say that the Japanese in general are illogical because…..? Isn’t that racism?

shazzb0t

Yeah, unstable_isotope’s argument is probably the lamest I’ve ever seen on JP.

Spock says: Highly illogical.

helical

Australians may well be hypocritical but that has no bearing on anti-whaling arguments.

One of the reasons sometimes cited as why whaling is bad is the so-called cruelty involved in the hunt.
The argument of the video is that if Australians can manage to be comfortable with the killings of dingos and kangaroos in various vicious ways (again, this is subjective), this calls into question if they really feel whaling is cruel in particular, or are just singling it out for other motives unrelated to the whales themselves.

helical

Sorry, my mistake makes the “again” unnecessary.
I meant to point out in the beginning that cruelty is, up to a point, a subjective matter even though it may still be a valid point to argue.

kaito

Cruelty is entirely subjective. Because many or most people feel the same way does not make it any less subjective.

(Note: I’m not arguing either side on this, just pointing out something in yours.)

shazzb0t

‘I have heard some anecdotal evidence that the Japanese aren’t very logical. Anyone care to back this up?’

Possibly one of these least logical thing I’ve ever read on JP. You jump from stating the video’s creator should employ better logic to avoid making Ad Hominen fallacies to wondering whether or not the Japanese people as a whole are not ‘logical’. This invites individuals to question the validity of the video creator’s points based on whether or not he is, by nature as a Japanese person, logical.

Spock says: Your post is highly illogical.

Evan

boy oh boy…

racism. the quote from edmund barton was quite relevant, cause that early 1900s australian sentiment is about where japan is at now in terms of us and them thinking.

dingoes. dingoes are a variety of dog. they will only go extinct in terms of interbreeding with domestic varieties. the species itself is in overabundance. the ecological niche they now fill – scavenger and sheep mauler – will continued to be filled by some kind of dog. comparing them with whales is like comparing an out of parlance phrase with a whole extinct language. different magnitude, different severity.

i did think the beer ad was pretty funny though.

ponta

A little off the topic. In 1919, Japan proposed the racial equality clause to the League Covenant. It was rejected by Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/federation/fedstory/ep2/ep2_places.htm

lskjdfl;asdjf

Yeah and then allied themselves with the Nazis 20 years later.

ponta

But didn’t commit the genocide of race.
And Sugihara protected the group of Jewish and the government refused the pressure from Germany to kill the refugee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

Japan killed Chinese during the war, it was a horrible thing to do but that was not on racial ground.
ponta

And if you are interested in Japanese -African-American friendship…

”In 1936, W. E. B. Du Bois, a leader in the African-American community, wrote a column about his two weeks stay in Japan to the Pittsburgh Clear entitled, “Unforgettable Experience.” When he was checking out one of the hotels in Tokyo, a typical American white lady wedged in front of him. A receptionist lady ignored the American lady and kept attending to him. After he finished his check, the receptionist made a deep bow to Du Bois, then she began to attend to the American lady. Her resolute attitude foresaw the opening of a New World.”

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~nippon/file/jog132e.htm

ponta

Oh, and incidentally what make you think “early 1900s australian sentiment is about where japan is at now in terms of us and them thinking.”

(BTW. I’ve never visited Austraria and I know little about it.)

Evan

australia at the turn of the last century was a largely homogeneous population with unseen minorities (much like where japan is at today)and was by and large racist (much like where japan is at today). national identity WAS defined in racial terms as it IS in contemporary japan. we have moved on a lot since then. there are still plenty of bigots, but they have learnt to keep their mouths shut due to the social enviornment and explicit laws prohibiting racial discrimination (something lacking and needed in japan). the city of melbourne has democratically elected a chinese immigrant as mayor – can you imagine tokyo doing the same for a nigerian?

i am aware of the racial equality bid by japan in the league of nations and australias opposition to it. and yes, i am ashamed of my countries past.

the cronulla riots were talked about in terms of racial hatred, and no doubt that was part of it, but the significant factor was religious hatred – people have confused the 2. there has been a real problem with 2nd generation muslim immigrants in west sydney who have low education, low skills, low employment rates and high violent crime tendencies. they have contempt for non-muslims. this is my opinion, but i think a mixture of conservative parenting and liberal/anything goes state multiculturalism, has resulted in them not integrating with the broader community. this friction is almost absent for other migrant groups that are more racially distinct (eg vietnamese).

ponta

I still don’t see why you think ““early 1900s Australian sentiment is about where japan is at now in terms of us and them thinking.”
In the early 1900s. Japan proposed the equality clause and Australia rejected.
In the colonial era, surely for instance, they were discriminated but they had the right to vote and they could become a congressman. There was no separation policy.
In 1936, Duboi saw a new world in Japanese attitude.
In the meantime in Australia the Aboriginal are denied as their comrade. And still we hear a lot of complaints from them.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/letters/apology-required-for-the-stolen-generation-and-so-much-more/2007/12/09/1197135280060.html
And I sometimes hear the similar complaints from Asians and Asian Australians that I hear from Zainichi in Japan. It might just be that you couldn’t see the complaints because you belong to the majority out there but you know what it means to be a minority because you are here on the minority side.
You mentioned the law that prohibits hate-speech.
Well that might be a good idea, Japan and the U.S. does not have it because so far they think it is better to leave the speech to the free-market rather than trust authoritative organs that might randomly pick up the speech as hate-speech and suppress it. So the law itself does not necessarily show the progress on Australian side.
I am not saying that Japan is free from racism. She has a lot of problems. What I don’t see is on what ground, other than your bias ,that you claim “early 1900s Australian sentiment is about where japan is at now in terms of us and them thinking.”
Evan

anti-racial discrimination legislation in australia is not only about speech. for example, denying people basic rights such as entrance to public places, residency, education or employment purely on racial grounds is illegal. and the law has teeth to deal with this.
do i need to spell out japans short comings in this regard? furthermore, freedom of speech in australia could be better, but it is an immense improvement on japan.

the japanese were not fighting for the rights of all peoples and minorities in the league of nations, they were campaigning to be treated on an equal footing with the powerful white-supremacist western nations. it is something to be respected, but you shouldnt put japan on too high a pedestal in this regard. their subjugation and enslavement of koreans, manchurians, and later on SE Asians and westerners shows where their heart really lay.

the continued explictly racist immigration policy granting preference to foreign nationals with “japanese blood” is disgusting, backward and stupid. a more sensible policy and outlook, would be to accept new japanese in terms of skills needed in the economy and those that have made the effort to learn the language and find their place in society. many of these people live in limbo because of the entrenched racism of japan – u can never become japanese. many japanese brazilians do fit in well, but many others are here due to this stupid preferencing and economic opportunity and dont really want to live as a part of japanese society. nor is the wider society willing to accept different cultural customs – like enjoying the beach, partying through the night and generally having fun .

attitudes towards aboriginals are generally atrocious and this is something to be ashamed of. there are complex historical reasons for this, but honest efforts are being made to undo some of the damage done by our government.

asian migrants in australia may come across some trouble from time to time, but in general, career and social opportunities are much more open than in japan. a chinese woman in japan has the options of hostess, prostitute or factory worker. she will never become shachou. this is not the case in australia.

australia will continue to have problems with discrimination – but we have institutions to combat this. japan has nothing and thus remains backward, like 1900s australia.
ponta

“japan has nothing and thus remains backward, like 1900s australia.”
Oh no, completely wrong even on your own accout.
Australia in 1900′s was whitesupermacy and rejected the equality clause which Japan proposed.
I don’t know how can you say Japan remains backward like that.
“denying people basic rights such as entrance to public places, residency, education or employment purely on racial grounds is illegal. and the law has teeth to deal with this.do i need to spell out japans short comings in this regard? ”
Yes you do.
For instance i have never heard that gaijin was rejected into the public place on purely racial ground . Education is guaranteed equally. Some landlords rejected Korean purely on racial grounds. but the Korean person won the case. You can see a lot lawyers, doctors, professors of Korean decent.
The constitutions state clearly the equality clause, and it directly applied to the civil cases.

How is your Australian law working when they are living separately in effect and an Indigenous Australian is almost three times more likely to be unemployed (20.0% unemployment) than a non-Indigenous Australian (7.6%)?

“u can never become japanese. many japanese brazilians do fit in well, but many others are here due to this stupid preferencing and economic opportunity and dont really want to live as a part of japanese society. nor is the wider society willing to accept different cultural customs – like enjoying the beach, partying through the night and generally having fun”
Of course they can enjoy beachm partying through the night and generally having fun AS LONG AS they
do not cause no harm, no trouble to others,
AS LONG AS they abide by the law. They can become
Japanese if they naturalized.

“ou shouldnt put japan on too high a pedestal in this regard. their subjugation and enslavement of koreans, manchurians, and later on SE Asians and westerners shows where their heart really lay.”
That does not deny that Australia was the way backward.
And I said it is true there was discriminations, but unlike Australia, the Koreans were granted the equal right with Japanese.

I would like to ask you again in what respect “early 1900s Australian sentiment is about where japan is at now in terms of us and them thinking.”

But let’s be specific this time. How did you measure the sentiment? The ratio of the equal right given to the minority? It can not be, because Korean Japanese are given the exactly same right as Japanese Unlike 1900s Australia which denied and enslaved the first nationals. So could you specify and compare the terms in view which you claimed your proposition. Otherwise you just look like crying out the manifesto of white supremacy
Kevin

It doesn’t really do much good to compare current Japan to 1900s Australia. Japan has made a tremendous amount of progress in terms of dealing with equality in society – yes, they still have lots of work to do, but it’s hardly productive to compare a modern society to one from 100 years ago; it just comes across as really insulting.
And ponta, on the same token, before you compare Australian aboriginal tribes to Koreans living in Japan, you might focus on more local groups such as the Ainu.
ponta

Right. Ainu　is a complex issue, and surely we need
to take note of the history. There was a discriminative and arrogant policy on the part of Japan and it seem the undue discrimination is not completely extinct.
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~ainu/faq/faq9.htm
Evan

this is getting silly. you have obviously taken a lot of offence to my comment. but, i stick by it. japanese attitudes on race, nationality and rights of minorities are backward. and i think it is similar to what oz was like 100 years ago. treatment of aboriginals back then was much worse than what anybody deals with in contemporary japan – but hey, its only a rough comparison – not every detail will match up. back then, a 3rd generation chinese australian was not white and hence was not australian. this thinking matches very well with current japan. people racially distinct, yet culturally japanese are treated as outsiders. asians can slip under the radar and “pretend” to be japanese, but others have no choice but to be treated as non-japanese.

japan has no laws explicitly dealing with racial discrimination. it is not a huge problem, but it is still there. many people have trouble renting apartments, certain businesses refuse entry, and employment opportunities are very limited – these are real issues that effect the lives of real people. they should have some legal recourse, but there is none.

you can check out that debito website for plenty of examples of discrimination and a failure of the japanese government to address it. im sure you are aware of that guy and his page, so i dont know why you are asking for specific examples. you are obviously willingly blind to these problems.

“How did you measure the sentiment?” i used vernia-calipers. no… i didnt measure it. it was an opinion expressed in response to a ridiculuous video. not a conclusion reached from some statistical analysis.

if you are japanese, it must be insulting for someone to call your society morally backward. but, in regard to attitudes of race, nationality and identity, the brutal truth is japanese are backward. rather than going hyper-defensive, maybe some reflection is in order.

just to stir the pot , i would add attitudes to women, homosexuals, the environment also lag behind other developed nations.
ponta

“this is getting silly ”

Right , this is getting silly because your proposition that early 1900s Australian sentiment is about where japan is at now is silly in the first place and because it just reflects your sentiment of White supremacy .Though I think the video’ claim that Australian anti-whaling is based on racism is a shaky allegation, it is ironical you share the exactly the same sentiment the video accuse Australia of.

(As for Debito’s blog, you need to examined the case on your own. He is selective in translating Japanese text, in interpreting the facts, in choosing the facts, He changes his post without notice. He arbitrarily bans the comment )
Kevin

I’d like to flip this conversation around a bit and ask ponta to give a grade to Japan as a whole in terms of the government / people’s response to foreigners and explain why.

A being best.

B

C

D

F being worst.
ponta

First off it seems my response to your comment on Ainu didn’t come through.
Second your question is vague, so I can only answer your question vaguely.
As a whole I think the Japanese have mixed feelings of curiosity and fear toward foreingers in general.
I can’t grade the Japan’s respond because you didn’t show the criteria to grade it.
But if you are interesteted in my more detailed opinion—I have a lot to say—, you might want to e-mail me.
ponta_at_oocidentalismアトヤフードットシーオードットジェーピー
I’ll be looking forward.
torren

A bit late to the discussion, but I’d also like to chime in that how sometimes when foreigners get treated bad (mostly in the past, not that much these days), they think it is because of race, but that is not always true.

A lot of the times, it is a status issue that stems from the past…for example, I recall once that someone complained that he was barred entry from a bar, and he thought it was because of his race when he had strong body odor (it was summer, though) and was wearing cheap clothes like a Hawaiian shirt. There was another foreigner allowed inside because he was very tidy and was dressed well…but in both cases, it would be the same result if he was Japanese.

Look at burakumin, they are Japanese ethnicity too but were discriminated against, so it is not always about race…and unfortunately, even though Japanese tend to be very polite to English teachers, it is still seen as more of a niche or low level job (this is different from normal teacher though, which is respected to some degree).

ponta, I hope if you’re going to be representing Japan’s viewpoint, you provide a real email, not like that fake email you made, where after I went out of my way to find and send some good textbook titles, it disappeared, and you later wrote untruths about me at occidentalism. Another example of same ethnicity poor treatment (but this is kind of arguing style in Japan).
ponta

Torren
I don’t represent’ Japan’s veiw point.
I represent my view point.
And what you are you talking about?
That is my real e-mail. Don’t talk craps.
Which textbook are you talking about? .
And what untruth about you did I tell you?
Just give me the link, we go and discuss out there.
ponta

I see why you thought that it was a fake e-mailprobably you are not familiar with Japanese convention as to how to write down mail address when you don’t want to get spam mails?
アトヤフードットシーオードットジェーピー
@yahoo.co.jp
Does that make sense?

I still don’t understand the rest of your comment on me. Are you a guy who wrote Japanese in Romanized letter on occidentalism? in which I pointed out there were some of mistakes that no native Japanese made?
Anyway this is off the topic just as Kevin’s question, just give me link or you can also e-mail me.
Evan

ponta says this “reflects your sentiment of White supremacy ”

i realise this is flogging a dead horse, but, how and in what way have stated any white supremacist views here? your comment only confirms mine – many japanese (including yourself) view the world through a racial lens. “japan is a nation and a race thus any criticism of japan must be criticism of the japanese race.” this is just daft. NEWS FLASH. japan is not a race. its a country.

anti-whaling is just that, anti-whaling. im sure you would find similar numbers of australians of any ethnicity that would be opposed to whaling. it is not about white people looking down on asians.

if you dont by into the same assumptions (whales are special due to their intelligence, complex social relations and sheer size; slow painful deaths should be avoided; needless killing is wrong; whale conservation sanctuaries should be respected; and so on and so so) then you will not reach the same ethical conclusions. perhaps because of this, you can only rationalise the criticism and opposition as racism. well, you are wrong. as is much of the video.
ponta

If you don’t realise that your statements that “early 1900s Australian sentiment is about where japan is at now” and that” japan has nothing and thus remains backward, like 1900s australia”, who rejected then Japan’s proposal to the equality clause not are the reflection of your sentiment of white supremacy, Oh well, so be it, it just goes to show that this sentiment is deep indeed among some of Australians.

Well anyway I have known on the Internet other Australian people who showed me the real sense of equality with Japanese, the sense we can work and tackle the problem together on the equal footing. I was so lucky to have known such respectable Australians that I don’t have to be trapped in generalizing from a particular case.

Thanks Evans. Keep up good works on your photos. I enjoy them.
torren

“Are you a guy who wrote Japanese in Romanized letter on occidentalism? in which I pointed out there were some of mistakes that no native Japanese made?”

No, most likely I’d be giving the pointers. Anyway, as you said, no point dragging on off topic issues, I wasn’t confused about your email, just curious if it will still work after a week. I’ll send you some texts which you might find interesting.

Also, while the whaling position may be your point of view, it is shared and repeated among quite a few individuals, although the youtube link only shows bad blood, don’t know why it gets so hateful.
ponta

My e-mail address is still working and is getting tremendous # of spam mails. I’ve been checking mails, but be sure that your mail stands out; Put “Torren”or “Japan Probe” in 件名. Thank you.
Evan

ponta. oh i see now. stating the fact that japan has no laws prohibiting racial discrimination is a clear declaration of my white supremacist world view.
well, i counter: your statement, “I’ve never visited Austraria and I know little about it.” clearly shows that you are a pedophile and an anti-semite.
Aki

I’d like to add a comment since I don’t like misinformations to be propagated here.

Evan wrote,
the city of melbourne has democratically elected a chinese immigrant as mayor – can you imagine tokyo doing the same for a nigerian?

Do you mean that the mayor is a Chinese national living in Melbourne? I cannot imagine a foreign national being elected as a mayor in a Japanese city. In Japan, foreign nationals are not eligible for election. However, as anyone probably know, anyone who have Japanese citizenship are Japanese citizens eligible for election regardless of their ethnicity. The present National Diet has members of Chinese, Korean, and Finn immigrants. Also, there would be many ethnically non-Japanese members in local assemblies. For example, a native New Yorker who became a naturalized Japanese citizen in 2002 has a democratically elected seat in the Inuyama City Assembly. Of course these people have Japanese citizenship.

http://www.japanprobe.com James

The video didn’t really seem to have a well-organized logical argument, and it jumped all over the place. I doubt it will convince many non-Japanese to change their minds.
Kevin

I for one thought the argument was all over the place, but brings up a very good point of cultural acceptance.

Around the world, the killing of whales is looked down upon by many cultures, but that doesn’t mean it’s prohibited by all. Just like many people see the killing of whales as disgusting, so too do many people see the killing of kangaroos, dogs, etc. as disgusting. It’s all about where you are born and raised and how your particular culture looks on a specific activity. Just as an example, the Native American tribes of the pacific northwest hunt whales as part of their belief system. Is it wrong to prohibit this?

I might be coming across as pro-whaling, which I’m not, but if we move to become a more globalized society, we are going to have to learn how to make compromises. Slamming the book shut on one cultural practice because we don’t like it is unacceptable.

*****

One thing that makes me so angry about this whole debate is that environmental groups can play dirty and get away with it. If there is really going to be a debate involved here, they should be doing it based on evidence and rational decisions and not emotion.

Evan

cultural relativism is retarded. its important to keep in mind that much your opinions and world views are determined by your social environment, but this does not mean we cannot criticize a culture (ours or anothers) if there are valid reasons.

hunting whales was an important component of many coastal cities of australia. but as a society, things were discussed, debated and fought in the political arena and we improved. this is something that doesnt happen in japan. cheese cake is a more relevant part of japanese culture than whale.

there are emotional reasons for being disgusted by killing whales which may be hard to defend if you are willing to eat other animals (particularly factory raised pork and poultry). but there are also very clear ethical reasons that make it a distinct case.
1) they are an intelligent and highly social animal with family bonds.
2) killings are still very slow and painful. i would not eat beef if i knew the cow had been stabbed in the guts then slowly electrocuted for 20-30minutes.
3) these are the largest animals to have ever evolved in the known universe. this is significant, and is grounds to consider them “special and unique” in a nonfateous sense like japanese food culture is “special and unique”.
4) the animals being killed are within an international whale conservation sanctuary. this is not the private economic sphere of japan.

steve

The fast-paced production lines in slaughter factories actually means that a large percentage of cows and pigs go through a much, much worse death than what you describe for whales.
Even if it wasn’t as bad as it is for factory farm animals, who defines what is too cruel and what is an acceptable level of cruelty?
Personally, I don’t think anyone who consumes any animal product is entitled to an opinion on this issue. And that includes almost every single Japanese.
This whole issue is nothing but a clash of culture and pride with a dash of racism and nationalism thrown in, all at the expensive of whales.

Evan

fast-paced is a good thing isnt it? if i were choosing how to go, a high-speed bolt punching through my skull and turning out the lights would definitely be better than harpoon, dragging, then electrocution.

the significant suffering for farm animals isnt the death itself, but their horrendous living conditions.

there are significant ethical differences in what meat we choose to eat.
for example, golden ruffy is still sold in australian supermarkets and this is a highly endangered deep water fish with a very slow breeding cycle. obviously, this is worse than other dietary options.

Kevin

I’m not sure you can exactly say cultural relativism is retarded. I think any culture should be able to criticize any other culture, but when it comes down to enforcing policies or creating international law then it should be taken into consideration. Take for example cows. In India they are considered sacred animals. Does that mean we should ban beef all over the world?

And to be honest, I could care less about whales, pigs, or whatever animal you want to talk about. I do however strongly agree with your 4th point. Anything that is in protected waters should stay that way. This should be non-negotiable.

Evan

“In India they are considered sacred animals. Does that mean we should ban beef all over the world?”

i think that means we should look at the reasons for treating cows as sacred and then form an opinion on that.
i have heard that beneath the religious taboo there is some economic logic because cows are more useful as beasts of burden in rural india s pre-fossil fuel economy than as food. this sort of relativism should have a place in our thinking. but, in terms of universal principles, religious tradition is pretty much one of the weakest reasons you could suggest for doing or not doing something. as is the “japan is special. you are racist” argument.
Kevin

I’ve been thinking about this whole whaling situation and it seems to me to be just the tip of the iceberg concerning an advancing globalism. As borders fade away and cultures come together these kinds of problems are going to continue to grow.
One thing that makes the pro-whaling stance by Japan so annoying is that they are essentially performing commercial whaling under the guise of research. If they would just come out and say what was really going on, it might actually help the dialog. By not doing this however, we have to argue semantics when the bigger question is really a very simple one:

“Should Japan be allowed to kill whales?”

Animal suffering should not be a part of this conversation because once it does, any other activities that involve animal suffering need to be banned. This includes testing products on animals, using animals for medical experiments, etc. Singling out whales makes no sense whatsoever in terms of suffering. If we put value on the lives of whales then pro-whaling countries should be able to implement a worldwide ban of something they don’t approve of.
Evan

“because once it does, any other activities that involve animal suffering need to be banned.” you are damn right – given the condition that the suffering is significant and unnecessary.

the whales do not need to be killed for any of the so called research data collected. nor do they need to be killed to feed people. japan is not undernourished and whale is not a popular meat – which is why they are trying to get it back into the kyushouku – nobody wants it, and school kids have no say in what is shoved in front of them.

when western universities and research institutions experiment on animals, they have to pass rigorous ethics committees and show the utility of their research outways animal suffering. ie the research could avoid human suffering which is more important than animal suffering. scientific whaling obviously would not pass such criteria.
torren

But evan, in the west cows are usually drained of their blood to some extent while they are alive and it isn’t always slow; when a whale is killed it is usually very fast because it is incredibly difficult to bring a whale onto a ship if it’s still alive. The harpoon also has a stunning effect. So as long as whales aren’t being killed to dangerous levels, what is the problem?

http://www.japaneconomynews.com/ Ken

This is actually an anti-whaling video. The point I get is two wrongs don’t make a right. Just like the killing of dingoes and kangaroos is wrong, so is whaling. The argument, “You do bad things so we can to” is morally bankrupt.

There would be much better ways to present pro-whaling arguments. This one is self-defeating, defensive and clearly biased. It can only do more harm than good to its own cause.
Fitch

I agree with former comments in that it is excessively defensive. As soon as that comes through, you invite people to whittle away at your arguments. This is a discussion of people vs. animals, not different races of people vs. each other. And regardless of how many Jews they saved during the war, or which two Japanese people managed to be friendly toward a black person fifty years ago, Japan as a country is going to have a bloody hard time playing the race victim card. They treat too many minorities like crap to claim victim status without some raised eyebrows from, oh, just about anyone not part of the Japanese “race.”
Canadian_D

The video is correct about turning vegetarian being the most significant move any average person can make to help the environment, but to say it’s impossible isn’t only stupid because I’m one (a vegan, and a quite healthy and fit one, for any suspecting I must be malnurished), but because Japan itself used to have the consumption of meat outlawed – there was an article on this very recently on japanprobe, but I inconveniently can’t find it. Perhaps someone else can provide a link to it.

And wow, I can’t believe the sakura goggle-wearing debaters who claim Japan to actually NOT be racist. I agree. Now I’m off to be needlessly finger printed and photographed at the airport, despite there being no hard evidence in existence to support the claims that such practices reduce terrorism in the slightest, and the fact that this entire practice ignores the documented fact that most acts of terrorism in Japan are the result of Japanese, rather than foreigners. Then I’m going to curl up in my gaijin house dorm room because the one real estate agent I found who would talk to me didn’t have any properties with foreigners allowed
http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=723
(lousy pianos get all the good properties) and read an issue of Gaijin Hanzai (too many links for this one, just search japanprobe) to catch up on all the latest foreign crime, such as a foreigner dating a Japanese girl.
Thank goodness there is no evidence of the police supporting Japan’s most racist magazine, if not actually publishing it themselves:
http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=261

Do your research before claiming Japan to not be racist, and I mean more than a single incident that was soon followed by Japan invading neighbouring countries and making sex slaves of their women. No, there couldn’t be ANY racism present in those kinds of acts. The same goes for giving Okinawans (an invaded and ruled over people, especially at the time) hand grenades and forcing them to kill themselves and their families at the end of the second world war. I would advise anyone thinking Japan has never committed an act of genocide to do more research too, as there will be material to support it for sure.

Am I anti-Japanese, no; I’ll be the first to admit Canada’s past attempts at genocide of the First Nations, and current attempt at cultural genocide of the same peoples, and that Canada helped the British to build concentration camps in the Boer War, the first war Canada ever participated in as an independent country. There is pretty horrible evidence out there of genocide on the part of peaceful Canada, so any claim that imperial Japan was devoid of racism is naive, to say the least.

ponta

As for calling fingerprinting racism, I think you are making the same mistakes as the video maker.You are using racism card too easily. Besides, somebody said Japan can’t play the victim card .If that is the case, by the same token, the white people cannot play the vicitm card on it.
And it is ironical you pick up Gaijin Ura hanzai magazine.The stores stopped selling it thanks to the effort of Japan Probe while Debito, whose site you linked, indirectly supports the equivalent, Japan Ura hanzai sites and has never stopped linking it.
As for the housing, you also might want to refer to Japan Probe’s post on the same issue rather than linking the site that support Japan Ura Hanzai file:you will find more fair account of it.
As for the Japan’s act during WWⅡ, your style of writing and understanding just looks like Korean ethnocentrists whose hobby is to pick up Japan’s past atrocities. Nobody deny there were atrocities on the part of Japanese army, but in case of Japan, it was not based on racism.

So you are a vegan. Great. What is your project to stop killing cows and pigs? Are you going to make ad in which you kill Canadians who ordered beef and pork in the way cows and pigs are killed?

phauna

Well of course the finger printing is racist because it only applies to non-japanese. It is the very definition of racist. It discriminates by race.

helical

I haven’t checked my sources, but I thought the fingerprinting applies to foreigners, which in this case means non-Japanese citizens, not racially non-Japanese people.
In the case of Japan, ethnicity and nationality happen to overlap for the great majoirty of people, meaning distinguishing by nationality means you end up distinguishing by race, but the policy itself isn’t racially discriminating.
Now I can’t speak for whether the racial distinction is just an unintended byproduct of the original policy or the real racist motive under the guise of distinction by nationality … but we all know it’s far too easy to draw our own conclusions from the end result alone and start pointing fingers in every which way.

ponta

I think the video overemphasized the racism.
But the point is that pro-whaling is on the same ethical ground with pro-eating-beef/pork and that the whales are not going to extinct under the control of scientific research while dingoes are going to extinct;What bias is working under the anti-whaling which focus only on whales?
Karisu

You know what? I’m pretty sick of all this fighting over food and animals. Just eat whatever you want and if you don’t like it yourself, don’t eat or support it.

Oh, and anyone that thinks the world will ever turn vegetarian or vegan is out of their mind. There is zero chance of me ever stopping eating meat and I know I am far, FAR from the only one on that.
koan

It’s interesting, that for such a long video clip, there are no images of whales being harpooned or killed. We are just told that high technology makes it more humane.

It’s also interesting how dingoes have been highlighted, given Japan’s love of dogs.

I looked up some of the “facts” about Australia and most of them were subjective. According to wikipedia (not 100% accurate source but quite good) aborigines were not included when counting how many votes to apportion to some states that had large populations. They were still counted in censuses and this policy was stopped in 1967.

I don’t buy the argument that this video is saying Australians are being hypocritical. I think it’s a counter attack on a nation that has had a well documented racist past. Remind me of how Japan is not racist next time I walk past an uyoku sound truck.

So this brings us back to whaling. You cannot use Norway’s whaling as an excuse.
Tres

I have written a long rebuttal to this video here:

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dghx9mkb_30fhbv429f
Joseph K

Hey there are some reasonably logical arguments coming through in these comments… well, compared to the ones in that video, that is! I was actually laughing out loud at each new stretch of his argument.

There are a hell of a lot extreme views of a homogeneous “Japan” coming through here though. I may just have a more positive outlook, but I tend to feel racism occurs on a mass scale chiefly due to ignorance, and that vocal and actively malicious racism occurs in a much much smaller percentage of society. If the ignorant could be effectively educated, then problems would be alleviated somewhat. That’s what I hope, at least…

Just a guess, but I’d say that the people shown gleefully killing kangaroos and dingoes in the video wouldn’t care too much about whales (beyond maybe laughing at that ad for Bluetongue, but I also doubt they’d be drinking something so niche) and would just as racist, in their own way, as the folks that drive those nationalistic sound trucks.
A large amount of Australians would be unlikely to watch these things with a smiling face – especially that kid smacking that young kangaroo around.

Anyway I don’t think it would be productive to dissect it, so I’ll stop before I get to that point. However thank you Ken for putting that last bit in context. I thought that juxtaposing Japanese laughingly eating whale against Australians happily eating kangaroo was just another illogical step.

I agree with the point that the Japanese government continues to claim that the hunt is for research purposes is a main issue – and if you’ve been reading Australian news reports on the matter, it’s one of a few things that is consistently brought up by both government and media.
It is also a pretty reasonable argument that whales ought to be safe in something called a “whale sanctuary”.
morningstar

We all know Australians never liked Asians.

Evow

An interesting youtube video…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtHrVcefWlo&feature=related

Although I try not to take on anyone’s sides, those Koreans living in Japan must really be living a repressive nightmare. Looks like the US and Canada is much better at providing “Equal Rights’ toward minorities… I assume.

ponta

Interesting.
The black van is infamous Japanese exteme rightist/yakuza’s
The vide’s caption is inapropriate. As far as I catch the words from the vide, it seems they are screaming out something against The General Association of( North)　Korean Residents, which are sometimes accused of tax evasion / exemption of the land ownership. Some of its members are also reported to be involved with the abduction. And they were talking about something like tax.
But from the video alone, we can not know what the topic was about.

The black van rightists/yakuza are annoying for sure, and they are extremely unpopular in Japan, even hated by rightists. But it is interesting the videomaker confessed that he didn’t understand Japanese they were screaming.The Japanese they were screaming is not old but the modern Japanese. I guess he is just making the caption based on his bias.

doinkies

I’ve seen this video before and I must concur with ponta that these people look definitely like a small group of extreme doinks.

As a counterpoint, I remember reading an article about a Korean woman who sued against a landlord who refused to rent to her. The court ruled partially in her favor and the landlord had to pay a fine. Here’s a link to the article:
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200710/200710050017.html
ponta

Thanks Doinkies.
The cases I had in mind are like this one.
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/affairs/trial/071130/trl0711301551006-n1.htm
James

Hmm… I don’t know.

I can understand a recently immigrated Koreans having hard time assimilating to the Japanese society and vise-versa.

But when a 4th generation tax-paying Korean-Japanese person (a ligitimate Japanese citizen who can’t even speak Korean language) will never be chosen for… say a typical Japanese government job because of his/her foreign blood, demonstrates that Japan maybe economically advanced but their social structure has some dirty issues.
Aki

I know that a forein national never be chosen for a Japanese goverment jobs because of his/her foreign nationality even if he/she is a 4th generation tax-paying resident in Japan. But is that true that a legitimate Japanese citizen who has foreign blood will never been chosen for a typical Japanese government job because of his/her foreign blood? Could you give us us a link?
Aki

James, I think your statement is not true since I know a second generation Korean immigrant who was a government employee (He was my intimate friend but he passed away about 5 years ago).
James

Racism/discrimination/prejudice… all these rarely ever come with an internet ‘link’ nor are they publicity spoken – they are rather subtly implied.

Many Zainichs and biologically Korean Japanese citizens hid their Korean origin/name in order to survive and avoid discrimination in Japan. In the US, a legal immigrant with the US citizenship can indeed live like a normal citizen – including applying for and attaining federal employment, whether or not the person’s name is Chang, Kim, Mak, or Suzuki.

Even if a Korean-Japanese person chooses to fully abandon their Korean traits, it is very hard for them to completely lose their Chosen-jin identity. Generally, Japanese look down on Chosen-jin, and Chosen-jin applying for a government job cannot even get the approval to take the entrance examination. No there is no law or an internet ‘link’ that says ‘Korean-Japanese not allowed’. But again, racism is not spoken; it’s the implications that create offense.

http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/ugsoc/his/Journal/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Melissa_Leong_Japan_Essay.pdf
Aki

The article you linked is just a clap with a lot of misinformations as your previous statement. I recommend you to learn real Japan.
http://www.japanprobe.com James

Just a note: This debate does not involve me, but rather another guy named “James.”
Aki

だぁぁぁぁ。I meant “crap” by “clap” in the previous comment.

nejimakitoria

Hi I’m but I didn’t have the time the read all the comments, but I just want to say that a few minutes ago I shown this video to a japanese guy and what surprised me is that he said that the japanese used in this video is a strange japanese”. What I to ask is: Is this video really made by a japanese?”
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